littco l450

[vw671]

I on the other hand prefer e tuning, although I wouldn't do pulls in 4th but 3rd due to speeds. Dyno tuning is an artificial environment that the engine gets tuned to really, but that's just me. I understand I may be in the minority with regards to this.

My worthless opinion...



Your actually doing your tune a dis-service really. The better your datalogs are the better your tune will ultimately be. Can be it be done with 3rd absolutely yes, will 4th gear be better...absolutely (*confirmed by Ed an actual tuner). An e-tuner can only tune based off the datalogs you give him. Give him more logs and better quality logs and your tune will be better.


FWIW, I've never seen a e-tune outperform a pro-tune, same car, day, fuel, dyno. Literally last night my buddy re-tuned his etuned car. They ran it on the dyno before touching anything. Cobb was used for both the e-tune and the protune, the protune made ~15wph more on top with higher gains in the middle. I will not mention any names to save them the embarrassment but it was a popular e-tuner.


Just because your protuned doesn't mean you shouldn't datalog. You should always datalog your car to see how your car is currently running as things happen as time goes on..boost leaks, sparkplugs wear out, coils may go, loss of compresion, etc.. Just knowing for example how much timing you run optimally is useful to understand if something is limiting power output.

 

[Ed @ EQT]

My worthless opinion...



Your actually doing your tune a dis-service really. The better your datalogs are the better your tune will ultimately be. Can be it be done with 3rd absolutely yes, will 4th gear be better...absolutely (*confirmed by Ed an actual tuner). An e-tuner can only tune based off the datalogs you give him. Give him more logs and better quality logs and your tune will be better.


FWIW, I've never seen a e-tune outperform a pro-tune, same car, day, fuel, dyno. Literally last night my buddy re-tuned his etuned car. They ran it on the dyno before touching anything. Cobb was used for both the e-tunes and the protune made ~15wph more on top with higher gains in the middle. I will not mention any names to save them the embarrassment but it was a popular e-tuner.


Just because your protuned doesn't mean you shouldn't datalog. You should always datalog your car to see how your car is currently running as things happen as time goes on..boost leaks, sparkplugs wear out, coils may go, loss of compresion, etc..

That last part is a tough one. It’s often easy to make a bit more power on the dyno. But if you log the car after in real world conditions, you are likely to encounter knock. I can’t speak for this specific car/tune/tuner, but if an e-tune is done well and the limits are explored responsibly, there is generally little to no extra power to be had from a dyno tune. If there is, it is unlikely to hold up in real world conditions like the e-tune was performed in.

I will say, however, that the dyno is an excellent tool for really smoothing out a powerband. It’s very difficult to see minor power fluctuations through the e-tune process, so the resulting curves may not be quite as pretty when it’s put on a dyno later.

When I tune cars at my shop, I do most of the tune on the dyno, but I road test and fine tune every car in real world conditions afterwards. Sometimes I don’t have to make any adjustments, but other times there are some significant changes to be made. I find it somewhat irresponsible to just tune on the dyno and hand off the car to the customer.

— Ed

 

[Stija]

My worthless opinion...



Your actually doing your tune a dis-service really. The better your datalogs are the better your tune will ultimately be. Can be it be done with 3rd absolutely yes, will 4th gear be better...absolutely (*confirmed by Ed an actual tuner). An e-tuner can only tune based off the datalogs you give him. Give him more logs and better quality logs and your tune will be better.


FWIW, I've never seen a e-tune outperform a pro-tune, same car, day, fuel, dyno. Literally last night my buddy re-tuned his etuned car. They ran it on the dyno before touching anything. Cobb was used for both the e-tunes and the protune made ~15wph more on top with higher gains in the middle. I will not mention any names to save them the embarrassment but it was a popular e-tuner.


Just because your protuned doesn't mean you shouldn't datalog. You should always datalog your car to see how your car is currently running as things happen as time goes on..boost leaks, sparkplugs wear out, coils may go, loss of compresion, etc..

Of course the dyno tuned car will perform better on the dyno than the e tuned car, duh. It was calibrated on the dyno, hence dyno tuned no? Now I am sure you realize by now that there is a flip side to this coin, ie. e-tuned car may perform better on the street than the dyno car. Same logic, it was calibrated on the street, real world conditions.

Just like you, I have read and heard plenty of stories where the car performs flawlessly on the dyno, but has all kinds of knock events on the street and has to be relogged then revised. Of course similar may apply for an e tuned car on the dyno, like you mentioned.

So there is a flip side to every coin. I personally am not looking for top whp as much as a conservative increase with attention to driveability. Like someone else here said, the last 5% is for the gods of speed.

As far as datalogging, my ap is comfortably sitting in my garage for weeks now. I am more about the driving experience than the monitoring experience.

 

[Stija]

When I tune cars at my shop, I do most of the tune on the dyno, but I road test and fine tune every car in real world conditions afterwards. Sometimes I don’t have to make any adjustments, but other times there are some significant changes to be made. I find it somewhat irresponsible to just tune on the dyno and hand off the car to the customer.

— Ed

This. I cant say that everyone finishes of a dyno tune on the street, but if they did, lets just say I may have given more thought to a dyno tune.

Thanks for your input.

 

[vw671]

Of course the dyno tuned car will perform better on the dyno than the e tuned car, duh. It was calibrated on the dyno, hence dyno tuned no? Now I am sure you realize by now that there is a flip side to this coin, ie. e-tuned car may perform better on the street than the dyno car. Same logic, it was calibrated on the street, real world conditions.

Just like you, I have read and heard plenty of stories where the car performs flawlessly on the dyno, but has all kinds of knock events on the street and has to be relogged then revised. Of course similar may apply for an e tuned car on the dyno, like you mentioned.

So there is a flip side to every coin. I personally am not looking for top whp as much as a conservative increase with attention to driveability. Like someone else here said, the last 5% is for the gods of speed.

As far as datalogging, my ap is comfortably sitting in my garage for weeks now. I am more about the driving experience than the monitoring experience.

Again just in my experience...


I've e-tuned my car twice and pro-tuned it once (*so far). The protune makes more power on the real road which is confirmed by Dragy. Drive-ability was also noticeably better with the pro-tune. But I realize that there are many variables at play so I can't guarantee the experience will be the same for everyone.


Also pro-tuners are also etuners...If after a protune you need your car adjusted that can also be done via an "e-tune" based on your original pro-tune.

 

[Hoon]

Street tuning >> Dyno tuning IMO.

The load and airflow differences matter, and the parameters that are best on the dyno are not necessarily best on the street.

That car might have taken more timing on the dyno with the reduced load and made 15whp more, and then knocked on the street and lost the gains.

With modern cars there's only one thing you can do better on the dyno than the street and that's Ethanol tuning, because you can see exactly how the car is reacting to each timing adjustment and know when you're getting close to MBT. Pump gas knocks so far before MBT that you just tune off the knock sensors.

The cars have widebands and amazing knock sensors, on pump gas or relatively mild E blends the dyno isn't doing anything for you (although it is a time saver).

 

[vw671]

Street tuning >> Dyno tuning IMO.

The load and airflow differences matter, and the parameters that are best on the dyno are not necessarily best on the street.

That car might have taken more timing on the dyno with the reduced load and made 15whp more, and then knocked on the street and lost the gains.

With modern cars there's only one thing you can do better on the dyno than the street and that's Ethanol tuning, because you can see exactly how the car is reacting to each timing adjustment and know when you're getting close to MBT. Pump gas knocks so far before MBT that you just tune off the knock sensors.

The cars have widebands and amazing knock sensors, on pump gas or relatively mild E blends the dyno isn't doing anything for you (although it is a time saver).

Why not do both then? best of both worlds. Confirming with Dragy along the way.

 

[Ed @ EQT]

Again just in my experience...


I've e-tuned my car twice and pro-tuned it once (*so far). The protune makes more power on the real road which is confirmed by Dragy. Drive-ability was also noticeably better with the pro-tune. But I realize that there are many variables at play so I can't guarantee the experience will be the same for everyone.


Also pro-tuners are also etuners...If after a protune you need your car adjusted that can also be done via an "e-tune" based on your original pro-tune.

Not all tuners are created equal .

But I will agree that I can generally provide a better overall result when I physically have the car here to work on. If you have a very good local tuner, it’s usually best to go that route versus e-tuning. However, a good e-tuner may provide better results than a mediocre tuner can in person.

— Ed

 

[vw671]

Not all tuners are created equal .

But I will agree that I can generally provide a better overall result when I physically have the car here to work on. If you have a very good local tuner, it’s usually best to go that route versus e-tuning. However, a good e-tuner may provide better results than a mediocre tuner can in person.

— Ed

Totally agree on all points!

 

[vw671]

This. I cant say that everyone finishes of a dyno tune on the street, but if they did, lets just say I may have given more thought to a dyno tune.

Thanks for your input.

My pro-tuner did...didn't realize that a pro-tuner wouldn't do a road test.

 

[Ed @ EQT]

My pro-tuner did...didn't realize that a pro-tuner wouldn't do a road test.

Happens all the time.

 

[SugarMouth]

A question to the group.

What designates a pro tuner from a tuner? When does that transition happen?

Somewhat rhetorical and somewhat creating focus on a word that can be used loosely at times.

I'm all ears.

 

[vw671]

A question to the group.

What designates a pro tuner from a tuner? When does that transition happen?

Somewhat rhetorical and somewhat creating focus on a word that can be used loosely at times.

I'm all ears.

In my eyes...


Pro-tune is a tune done on a dyno where the tuner can see everything in the datalog as well as the output of the car simultaneously from the dyno.

e-tune is a remote tune done by the customer submitting datalogs they captured from logging sessions typically 4th gear pulls from low rpm to redline at full throttle.

 

[Stija]

Well im sure Cobb has a licensing process which has requirements and a fee. That makes one officially a licensed pro cobb tuner. I suspect that there are no required education classes for pro license and if there are they are barely sufficient to understand what’s going on.

An e tune and a dyno tune by same licensed professional is a pro tune.

Choose your tuner wisely, like any other licensed professional, ie doctor, lawyer, etc. That’s why they say practicing law, medicine and tuning im sure. Lol

 

[Hoon]

A question to the group.

What designates a pro tuner from a tuner? When does that transition happen?

Somewhat rhetorical and somewhat creating focus on a word that can be used loosely at times.

I'm all ears.

"Pro-tuner" = Cobb marketing