Manual vs. DSG

[Diggs24]

Porshce GT3

VWs Chinese knockoff?

 

[CarlosCanizares]

VWs Chinese knockoff?

Fully equipped with a Panasoanic head unit.

 

[jimlloyd40]

But so is the DSG in it's stock form (aka OEM TCU). They're both trash. I've owned 2 MT MK7s and 1 DSG MK7 and the DSG sucks until you get a tune + mounts, and the manual sucks until you do the CDV delete, spring delete, clutch stop, and mounts. The difference is I can at least drive my MT as-is now, with a warranty, until my clutch dies. I basically couldn't stand to drive my DSG, EVEN AFTER I tuned it just because the Uni DSG tune is a deplorable waste of money. Beyond me how anyone whose ever had it considered it an upgrade.

So the way I see it:
DSG sucks until you tune it, which sucks a lot for people who want to keep their warranty.

Manual sucks until you perform ~$250 worth of upgrades to improve the general shifting action. One might say it sucks until you replace the clutch entirely, but I am perfectly happy with it as-is, until that day comes.

But im a manual guy. I could've driven a bone-stock 6MT for 60K miles and still enjoyed it more than a bone-stock DSG for 60K miles.

I have to agree with that. If I had a DSG and couldn't get it tuned for whatever reason I would prefer a manual. The stock DSG tuning is terrible.

 

[CarlosCanizares]

I have to agree with that. If I had a DSG and couldn't get it tuned for whatever reason I would prefer a manual. The stock DSG tuning is terrible.

With no long-term experience in them, are they sucky in auto mode or even manual mode too?

 

[sandmangti]

I have to agree with that. If I had a DSG and couldn't get it tuned for whatever reason I would prefer a manual. The stock DSG tuning is terrible.

I did not find it terrible.
It actually feels more like a manual as it is noisier and clunky.
stage 1 smooths out a lot and makes it have less feel at normal speeds. But the tune is needed with an engine tune to better handle power. The feeling comes back some the harder and faster one drives. I think stock is tuned the way it is to give a more manual feel.
Just my thoughts.

 

[jimlloyd40]

With no long-term experience in them, are they sucky in auto mode or even manual mode too?

Better in manual mode but the stock programming is horrible in D or S mode. For an example if you are in Drive mode and turn onto another street the trans will stay in 3rd gear lugging the motor and to get it to kickdown to 2nd gear you have to apply so much throttle by the time it kicks down you're going faster than you intended.

 

[Golfs everyday]

..

Let's be honest here, Jim, slapping is fun even on bass guitars, among others.

New debate - wheel-mounted or column-mounted paddles?

I'm not a bassist so I can only enjoy watching/listening to bass slap solo's.

When I had my MK7 GTI with DSG, I just mashed the gas to the floor and let the car get into the correct gear. With that switch below the gas pedal, it did not matter which drive mode which gear I was in. The car would automatically give the maximum power and hold that gear if I was in manual mode.

Column mounted paddles are better for sure, but my other car has paddles that spin with the steering wheel. I got use to it as I would just shift up using the shifter knob when I need to make hard turns at an intersection.

 

[Dog Dad Wagon]

With no long-term experience in them, are they sucky in auto mode or even manual mode too?

Yes - they suck in D, S, ~and~ M.

D shifts at or below 2K RPMs with any less than 50% throttle, and is very unresponsive to progressive throttle input (if you start a at 10%, and ease into it it'll basically keep on with the 10% logic until you reach a threshold of 50%). D will put you in 6th gear @40K, which translates to ~1200RPM. And it's very unresponsive to downshift at that point, you can add throttle and it'll just throw more boost at 1200-1600RPMs. I used to laugh maniacally at how stupid it was. "Yeah, let's just throw some more boost at it! That makes SO MUCH SENSE! LSPI IS MY FAVORITE!!!!"

S doesnt ever shift, ever. lol. it loves to run wayyyyy out of the powerband (WOT in S will take you to redline, 6700RPM. WOT in D will take you to 6K, which is a MUCH better shiftpoint on stock ECU since the IS20 can't breathe past like 5.5K).

M also sucks because the transmission operates (read: shifts) MUCH more smoothly and "naturally" in D and S, since when it's in control it knows it's going to shift BEFORE it shifts, and prepares a set of operations that make it shift fast and smooth while carrying boost/power into the next gear. In M mode, it doesn't know when you're going to shift, so when you tell it to, it takes a full second to respond. but without any of the above described operations, so it's unresponsive to shift commands, and when it DOES shift, it doesn't do it smoothly, and it dumps boost between shifts unlike in D/S.

Better in manual mode but the stock programming is horrible in D or S mode. For an example if you are in Drive mode and turn onto another street the trans will stay in 3rd gear lugging the motor and to get it to kickdown to 2nd gear you have to apply so much throttle by the time it kicks down you're going faster than you intended.

^ yes, lots of this. just bogs down the trans as you slow down into a turn in D. My mom's 2010 CC had significantly better OEM DSG tuning. It always downshifted to an appropriate gear, at the appropriate time, to give you the power you needed to pull yourself out of the apex of the turn. this literally will never happen with a MK7 2015-2017 DSG on factory tune. it only bogs, then downshifts like twice to 1st gear because you have to push past 50% throttle to get it to downshift.

I did not find it terrible.
It actually feels more like a manual as it is noisier and clunky.
stage 1 smooths out a lot and makes it have less feel at normal speeds. But the tune is needed with an engine tune to better handle power. The feeling comes back some the harder and faster one drives. I think stock is tuned the way it is to give a more manual feel.
Just my thoughts.

Sandman, you're a different bird. I think that the stock tune is tuned the way it is because manufacturers have "average MPG" goals they want to meet across their entire lineup (pretty sure it's an EPA/regulatory requirement, or at the very least has some sort of federal incentive for them to meet these goals), and by neutering the transmission programming on all their vehicles they can achieve 1-2mpg better "average consumption" across their whole model range. This goal surpasses QA goals like "Is this car fun to drive, like we set out on our mission as a company to do?"

The engineers at VW do what VW has always done: make really awesome powertrains that provide Luxury Sports Car performance/feel in the Economy Car class.

But the marketing/senior leadership teams know they're still economy cars, so they PROGRAMMING neuters the awesome hardware they provide.

 

[Dog Dad Wagon]

I DID get to drive a 2019 GTI SE DSG loaner for a full month while my girlfriend's pano was getting repaired, and I liked the DQ381 programming a lot more.

Here was my impressions:

1. Auto Stop/Start = uprated engine/trans mounts = better overall powertrain solidity from the factory, which translates to improved up/downshifting.
2. The transmission is much more likely to shift in the 2-3K range, depending on throttle. It would *consistently* rev above 2K before shifting, even with light ~20-30% throttle. This was my number 1 gripe with the DQ250 on my 2015 GTI.
3. For better or for worse (compared to the DQ250, I thought it was better). it drove more like a torque converter trans. unless you were past 50% throttle, shifts were less snappy, and you could visually see the RPMs drop the way they do with a torque converter compared to a DCT. DSG shifts looks VERY different on the tach than a torque converter shift. Seems like there was a lot more partial-disengagement/engagement of pre/proceding gears (respectively) as you accelerated. I liked it. It was still very quick and snappy at WOT.
4. The car got way better gas mileage than my 2015 DSG GTI did. My 2015 got like 29 highway and this one got like 37 lol
5. S drove a lot more tame than the obnoxious, USELESS S mode on my 2015. S drove more like D, and D drove more like S. They really addressed the gaps in the DQ250 programming with the DQ381.

If they offered the DQ381 on my Alltrack, there is a high chance I would have purchased it.

 

[jimlloyd40]

Yes - they suck in D, S, ~and~ M.

D shifts at or below 2K RPMs with any less than 50% throttle, and is very unresponsive to progressive throttle input (if you start a at 10%, and ease into it it'll basically keep on with the 10% logic until you reach a threshold of 50%). D will put you in 6th gear @40K, which translates to ~1200RPM. And it's very unresponsive to downshift at that point, you can add throttle and it'll just throw more boost at 1200-1600RPMs. I used to laugh maniacally at how stupid it was. "Yeah, let's just throw some more boost at it! That makes SO MUCH SENSE! LSPI IS MY FAVORITE!!!!"

S doesnt ever shift, ever. lol. it loves to run wayyyyy out of the powerband (WOT in S will take you to redline, 6700RPM. WOT in D will take you to 6K, which is a MUCH better shiftpoint on stock ECU since the IS20 can't breathe past like 5.5K).

M also sucks because the transmission operates (read: shifts) MUCH more smoothly and "naturally" in D and S, since when it's in control it knows it's going to shift BEFORE it shifts, and prepares a set of operations that make it shift fast and smooth while carrying boost/power into the next gear. In M mode, it doesn't know when you're going to shift, so when you tell it to, it takes a full second to respond. but without any of the above described operations, so it's unresponsive to shift commands, and when it DOES shift, it doesn't do it smoothly, and it dumps boost between shifts unlike in D/S.



^ yes, lots of this. just bogs down the trans as you slow down into a turn in D. My mom's 2010 CC had significantly better OEM DSG tuning. It always downshifted to an appropriate gear, at the appropriate time, to give you the power you needed to pull yourself out of the apex of the turn. this literally will never happen with a MK7 2015-2017 DSG on factory tune. it only bogs, then downshifts like twice to 1st gear because you have to push past 50% throttle to get it to downshift.



Sandman, you're a different bird. I think that the stock tune is tuned the way it is because manufacturers have "average MPG" goals they want to meet across their entire lineup (pretty sure it's an EPA/regulatory requirement, or at the very least has some sort of federal incentive for them to meet these goals), and by neutering the transmission programming on all their vehicles they can achieve 1-2mpg better "average consumption" across their whole model range. This goal surpasses QA goals like "Is this car fun to drive, like we set out on our mission as a company to do?"

The engineers at VW do what VW has always done: make really awesome powertrains that provide Luxury Sports Car performance/feel in the Economy Car class.

But the marketing/senior leadership teams know they're still economy cars, so they PROGRAMMING neuters the awesome hardware they provide.

Plus the stock DSG tuning gear hunts. Trying to drive on city streets was frustrating because it could be in 6th gear at 45 MPH and if you drop 1 MPH it will downshift into 5th. That's why I got the EQT DSG tune.

 

[RudyH]

6mt = 100% more fun
DSG = 100% more faster.

its that simple really. DSG is seamlessly and consistently much much faster. I went DSG bc my track toy is manual, If i wanta get my shifting jollys off i just drive the track toy to work.
Honestly tho the DSG is special, it makes going really fast, really really easy.

I m surprised this didn't just end the thread?
I have driven 6MT for 20+ yrs now? with some cars in between there that were automatic including a DCT S4 (Stronic). The DSG is fantastic, and from performance stand point you cannot argue it is far superior then the 6MT. When you want to tune the car and 'be the fastest', you will win with the DSG every time.

The caution is, now that they dangled the carrot in front of everyone to go automatic, they are swapping the DCT for torque convertors and claiming they are as good. HECK NO! Most reviews do say the new ZFs for example are more smooth etc, but performance is 'close'.

The reason I went with 6MT over the DSG, is simply, this will be the last 6MT I will likely ever own, not by my choice. Enjoy it, as it will be dead very soon unless you can find a used car with one.

 

[imthanick_a]

More importantly, you need to ask the group what fuel to use, and also what color you should get!

 

[JerseyDrew77]

More importantly, you need to ask the group what fuel to use, and also what color you should get!

Along with what tune is best and what type of oil to use.

 

[CarlosCanizares]

Along with what tune is best and what type of oil to use.

Or what drain plug.

 

[Desslok]

What brand NOS are you guyz using?!