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FMIC questions

StorableComa

Autocross Champion
Location
SoCal, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S FWD
The idea that somebody like BMS or Unitronic can sell a lower cost B&P that is supposedly an all around superior performing product, while suppliers like Wagner, whom I've had an IC from previously that was B&P, would choose for this application to use T&F, leads me to think that it there may be other considerations, and not simply cost.

Sure they have some bias, but they also have options to sell either design and they picked a T&F. I don't think you're lying, but I also don't take what you say as the last word on intercooler design.

From the Wager FAQ. They let you configure your own custom IC and have both B&P and T&F as options.

"The fundamental difference between performance on the one hand and competition on the other lies in the structure of the intercooler net. In the area of performance, it is a bar & plate net, while we use a tube fin net for our charge air coolers from the competition area.

The bar & plate net originally comes from simple industrial production and has been used as a charge air cooler network for a long time, because it can be produced cheaply in any version. The basic structure of this network, however, ensures a higher weight or an increased proportion of material, which leads to the storage of the heat from the charge air if the load continues. The production of a tube fin net is more complex and therefore more expensive due to the necessary use of special tools. This type of net has a significantly lower proportion of material - and therefore less weight -, which means that the tube fin net can better dissipate the high temperatures to the environment and thus work even more efficiently.
"
Question - Does this apply to all T&F, or just Wagner's special design? The Magic/Majestic intercooler has almost 1k internal volume and is T&F with the version 2, the original being B&P from my reading on the threads for it. At the price of 320 shipped it seems like a steal - Granted the modification aspect is a bit of a PITA, but maybe they've sorted the drivers post size and such with the new version. It's often been called a Wagner repop by some in that thread as well. It's a bit heavier than the wagner, but has more charge rows even though it has slightly less frontal area. Just curious as for my price range I can pick up that or for 479 shipped go with a B&P BMS IC.
 

El_bigote_AJ

Autocross Champion
Location
Las Vegas
Car(s)
2019 GTI bunny
I don’t think ARM is using authentic Vibrant cores for two reasons.


-Vibrant just increased pricing by 20%, so their retail price is in the negative unless they’re buying every component as cheap as possible and having it built in China.

-A customer PM’d me a picture of the ARM kit and the intercooler itself looked like it was straight off of WISH lol.

Anyway there’s something out there for everyone and even if it’s bottom of the barrel components






Questionable rough finish even overtop of the welds on ARM. Unless it’s a rendering it doesn’t appear to be Vibrant

https://mygolfmk7.com/2020/09/project-bicooler-arm-motorsports-fmic/

didn't even make it to the testing phase yet and he wont even stick it on the car. lol
 

swcrow

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
7.5 GTI

StorableComa

Autocross Champion
Location
SoCal, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S FWD
Isn't it normal to blow out an IC before installing it? I assume debris is normal in the manufacturing process, and just isn't seen with the big names because they clean them out prior to shipping?
 

GTI_Owner

Go Kart Champion
Location
USA
Car(s)
2016 GTI
The Inlet Temp in the second graph should be close to equal with the others - unless the engine wasn’t run as long, on a different boost, or on a different turbo.
And
You need to question why pressure drop is measured at 6250rpm; since boost has already steadily tapered down by then. Besides, pressure drop doesn’t soley stem from an intercooler - it begins all the way back from the intake itself and through the entire path into the manifold.
Pressure drop can be measured from the Hot side and Cold side and determining the differential in pressure.

OE fitment is the all around winner by a long shot. Can’t beat the “surface area & volume”.

I agree, inlet temps should be close, since they aren't it doesn't seem like the test was very well done. Pressure drop depends more on airflow than pressure, so measuring it at a high engine speed makes sense. Looking at ECS's results their FMIC compares very favorably with the OE-mount upgrade.
 

Chogokin

Autocross Champion
Location
So Cal
Car(s)
GTI Sport | Audi A3
To me it just looks like a bunch of splitting of hairs. Comparing some pretty marginal differences once the car hits the street.

So what would it take to do a non bias test among the IC brands and types? I bet it would cost a whole lot of money and time...a test no one will do.

Also the FM showed more of a gain and also has less torque loss than the OE fit intercooler. How much if a difference would this make on the street?

Screen Shot 2020-09-18 at 1.25.02 PM.png
 
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bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
23 Golf R - 3 Pedals
I think you just have too many variables. GTI or R? IS20, IS38, various hybrids? What other mods? Altitude, temperature, static (with fans) or moving? Just way too many things that can make one intercooler look like the magic elixir on one car and like a poor fit on another.
 

GTI_Owner

Go Kart Champion
Location
USA
Car(s)
2016 GTI
To me it just looks like a bunch of splitting of hairs. Comparing some pretty marginal differences once the car hits the street.

So what would it take to do a non bias test among the IC brands and types? I bet it would cost a whole lot of money and time...a test no one will do.

Also the FM showed more of a gain and also has less torque loss than the OE fit intercooler. How much if a difference would this make on the street?

View attachment 186309

The IC inlet temperature with the OE Upgrade starts out 30 degrees greater than the FMIC, and by the end of the pull is 70 degrees greater! That's the air temperature before it ever gets to the intercooler. A fair test of the intercoolers would control that temperature so it is close for each IC. Disregard that dyno chart because the conditions were not well controlled.
 

StorableComa

Autocross Champion
Location
SoCal, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S FWD
https://mygolfmk7.com/2020/09/project-bicooler-arm-motorsports-fmic/

didn't even make it to the testing phase yet and he wont even stick it on the car. lol
Dang....that's a crap load of debris.......
Isn't it normal to blow out an IC before installing it? I assume debris is normal in the manufacturing process, and just isn't seen with the big names because they clean them out prior to shipping?
So serious question as I've read this quite a bit in the different IC threads I've been reading through - Is it good practice the blow out/flush an IC before install? Seeing as it's a hunk of metal pieces with no moving parts, if cleaned what would be the concern of something dislodging and hurting the turbo/engine? I would think you'd have a leak or some other failure before hand but I really have no first hand experience here.

From what I've read it's better to blow it out or flush before installing properly as depending on how it's packaged things can enter the IC via shipping. I've read quite a few posts in the magic thread and I believe a few other places where some debris was found on cleaning before install, but no issues were had and no concern was given. As depending on how these things are assembled, either all pieces pre tooled, or welded and then modified you may end up with some shavings and junk from the manufacturing process of assembling it.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
23 Golf R - 3 Pedals
The IC inlet temperature with the OE Upgrade starts out 30 degrees greater than the FMIC, and by the end of the pull is 70 degrees greater! That's the air temperature before it ever gets to the intercooler. A fair test of the intercoolers would control that temperature so it is close for each IC. Disregard that dyno chart because the conditions were not well controlled.
Again, without knowing the conditions, that actually could be fair. If both cars were done back to back and idling during down time, perhaps the stock setup of three heat sinks sandwiched together really is creating Heat Soak Island in there and you're starting out with a thermally challenged system from the get go. Just removing the meat of the heat sandwich (even if it's still there, but not putting out it's own heat) could feasibly see a 30 degree lower starting point, and also allow the entire cooling network to retain better head room through out sustained pulls.

There are a number of high power cars with FMIC, so the constant assumption that any aftermarket stock location is preferable to any fmic seems to have been heavily challenged with real world results. If we were seeing consistent issues with a particular turbo and a particular intercooler, I think we could assume that there were limitations, but again, we're dealing with too many variables. I still hold that oil cooling is a major issue, at least for the GTI without the piddly external cooler the R gets. So if you're comparing an IS38 GTI to a stock R, you're already biasing the outcome just for that alone. I'd greatly prefer to tackle coolant, oil and charge air at the same time, trying to isolate one without addressing the others is sort of like adding a dogbone insert without adding motor or transmission mounts. Oops, currently there.
 

Ezekiel81923

Autocross Champion
Location
Royersford, PA
Car(s)
2019 Volkswagen GTI
So serious question as I've read this quite a bit in the different IC threads I've been reading through - Is it good practice the blow out/flush an IC before install? Seeing as it's a hunk of metal pieces with no moving parts, if cleaned what would be the concern of something dislodging and hurting the turbo/engine? I would think you'd have a leak or some other failure before hand but I really have no first hand experience here.

From what I've read it's better to blow it out or flush before installing properly as depending on how it's packaged things can enter the IC via shipping. I've read quite a few posts in the magic thread and I believe a few other places where some debris was found on cleaning before install, but no issues were had and no concern was given. As depending on how these things are assembled, either all pieces pre tooled, or welded and then modified you may end up with some shavings and junk from the manufacturing process of assembling it.

The core should be shipped with caps on the inlet / outlet. I've only bought two intercoolers in my day but neither was packaged in anything that could get stuck in the core and the ends were capped.

But - I always used my compressor to give the thing a good cleaning. Even if it was cleaned before packaging, you never know. I'd be more worried about loose metal shavings from manufacturing than a packing peanut.
 

StorableComa

Autocross Champion
Location
SoCal, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S FWD
Didn’t blow my IE out. Wasn’t aware that was even a thing. What shitty QC....
True, I agree it is but I don't see the idea of blowing it out as a huge inconvenience on my end. Hell, for all I know a bee flew in the damn thing when I had it uncapped in the driveway before the swap (good practice I suppose to keep things buttoned up until your physically doing the swap aside).

If it holds pressure and is cleaned before hand, QC/cleaning pre shipment aside, would you be concerned? My novice opinion is leaning toward no, but as I said I'm here to learn from those who have done before me.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
23 Golf R - 3 Pedals
My concern would he what shards are just hanging on in there that will let loose later? Not worth it to save a buck.
Maybe Baun is tossing a few Benjamins in there and the joke's on the people making fun of his pricing the whole time.
 
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