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FMIC questions

Chogokin

Drag Racing Champion
Location
So Cal
Car(s)
GTI Sport | Audi A3
The reason why it says it won't fit is probably because you have to cut up the inside of the bumper. Friend of mine installed a Neuspeed IS38 on his wagon. He said that he had to trim a lot of the inside of his bumper.
 

git_fan

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
2016 GTI
Tube and fin is lighter and higher volume because it has a much higher external to internal surface area ratio. This works well with air outside and water inside because water is much more conductive than air.

With air to air bar and plate is superior. The surface area internal to external is roughly even.

Also, as I have mentioned before, higher weight is an advantage in open loop cooling which is what an intercooler does (the gas being cooled doesn't recirculate)

Anyone wants to challenge it I'm happy to go deeper... But tube and fin is not ideal, not to say it doesn't perform okay but nobody should be saying "tube and fin is a superior design"

Tube and fin is far cheaper to make, so likely a lot of marketing is behind that "tube and fin is great" sentiment.
Do you mind if I forward your statements to some of the suppliers I listed above to see how they answer?
 

StorableComa

Go Kart Champion
Location
Long Beach, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S
Do you mind if I forward your statements to some of the suppliers I listed above to see how they answer?
This is where things seem to get confusing. I've read that statement more or less on a few different suppliers (granted yes, everyone is going to sell their product) and repeated in a lot of the threads here. Reading through the magic/majesty thread that was the big bang for your buck thing that gets mentioned a lot, it being a bar&plate vs tube&fin. Granted it looks like the newest version offered is a tube and fin for the majesty, so i'm trying to find logs outside the earlier installs listed there to research this a bit myself.

Do you have any good links to reading material or data collections? I'm trying to make the best choice around the $500 mark with moderate power goals in mind and any additional info is welcome. Seeing as how this thread started as a question and OP was asked to do his homework.
 

IanCH

Go Kart Champion
Location
MA
Car(s)
'20 GTI Autobahn
Do you mind if I forward your statements to some of the suppliers I listed above to see how they answer?

Sure go shop the explanation you got from a mechanical engineer who concentrated in thermal fluids and has years of practical design and implementation experience with the marketing people and mechanics at the suppliers. I'm sure they won't lie to you to boost their product.

I don't have any reason to lie to you and everything I said is independently verifiable if you go get an engineering degree or maybe even a thermals textbook if you're motivated...
 
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Hollywood0220

Go Kart Newbie
Location
NW
Car(s)
German/Japanese
Area & Volume are key factors.

A stock IC has Area, but not the adequate volume. It’s a mass produced street car and not intended for racing application. Spirited does not equal race.

Now, an owner dials up the power - thus generating more boost and notably more heat (especially on a stock turbo).
So, w/o changing much aspect of VW’s design for cooling: all you would require is better volume. Stock location ICs would provide for the best Street performance.

FMICs do not have the surface area that a stock location unit has. They make up for that by increasing depth - but they lack area. For a much larger turbo that is flowing more air with less boost and not generating as much heat as pushing a stock turbo to its max - there can be a benefit.

F1s use lighter Tube/Fin designs and are pushing much harder than any modified version of any mass produced vehicle - liter for liter. I would highly recommend an AMS stock location intercooler with 24 louvered fins per square inch on any stock turbo Staged tune available.
If someone is running a larger turbo, it’s a toss up because the heat measurement is complimented by 2 items vs 1.

Let everyone be satisfied with their choice.
 

StorableComa

Go Kart Champion
Location
Long Beach, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S
Area & Volume are key factors.

A stock IC has Area, but not the adequate volume. It’s a mass produced street car and not intended for racing application. Spirited does not equal race.

Now, an owner dials up the power - thus generating more boost and notably more heat (especially on a stock turbo).
So, w/o changing much aspect of VW’s design for cooling: all you would require is better volume. Stock location ICs would provide for the best Street performance.

FMICs do not have the surface area that a stock location unit has. They make up for that by increasing depth - but they lack area. For a much larger turbo that is flowing more air with less boost and not generating as much heat as pushing a stock turbo to its max - there can be a benefit.

F1s use lighter Tube/Fin designs and are pushing much harder than any modified version of any mass produced vehicle - liter for liter. I would highly recommend an AMS stock location intercooler with 24 louvered fins per square inch on any stock turbo Staged tune available.
If someone is running a larger turbo, it’s a toss up because the heat measurement is complimented by 2 items vs 1.

Let everyone be satisfied with their choice.
Good info, mind if I pick your brain on the topic? I'm looking at the BMS MQB intercooler due to price vs spec trade off after reading through this: http://mygolfmk7.com/mk7-gti-r-intercooler-comparison/

I plan on going no bigger than IS20 on the 1.8T, and looking more for reliability than pushing the limits of the setup. Looking at potentially picking up a nuespeed "No CEL" no guaranteed anymore DP, AFE dry and snow guard removal, mounts/inserts, suspension is still kinda iffy as i'm honestly looking at a lift with the Forge of BES kit.

I read through the Magic/Majesty IC thread, which caught my eye for the price and how many ran it with logs - but the version i'm seeing now on Ali/Ebay is a Tube fin version vs the earlier Bar plate, and also not as thick? Could be mixing up ICs.

For the price vs the AMS would you still recommend? I can get a Majesty tube fin for 320 shipped, and a BMS bar plate for 479 shipped pre tax.
 

IanCH

Go Kart Champion
Location
MA
Car(s)
'20 GTI Autobahn
Uhh absolutely false that f1 cars are using a tube and fin intercooler design. The only information I found in a quick google search shows that f1 cars are using an intercooler radiator design that has much more in common with bar and plate than tube and fin. And even then the f1 intercooler is about 10x more complex and probably impossible to produce for any production car.
 

Hollywood0220

Go Kart Newbie
Location
NW
Car(s)
German/Japanese
Good info, mind if I pick your brain on the topic? I'm looking at the BMS MQB intercooler due to price vs spec trade off after reading through this: http://mygolfmk7.com/mk7-gti-r-intercooler-comparison/

I plan on going no bigger than IS20 on the 1.8T, and looking more for reliability than pushing the limits of the setup. Looking at potentially picking up a nuespeed "No CEL" no guaranteed anymore DP, AFE dry and snow guard removal, mounts/inserts, suspension is still kinda iffy as i'm honestly looking at a lift with the Forge of BES kit.

I read through the Magic/Majesty IC thread, which caught my eye for the price and how many ran it with logs - but the version i'm seeing now on Ali/Ebay is a Tube fin version vs the earlier Bar plate, and also not as thick? Could be mixing up ICs.

For the price vs the AMS would you still recommend? I can get a Majesty tube fin for 320 shipped, and a BMS bar plate for 479 shipped pre tax.
The BMS would benefit you both in price and performance on your IS20 choice. You still get more Core Volume than stock with the same surface area.
 

Hollywood0220

Go Kart Newbie
Location
NW
Car(s)
German/Japanese
Uhh absolutely false that f1 cars are using a tube and fin intercooler design. The only information I found in a quick google search shows that f1 cars are using an intercooler radiator design that has much more in common with bar and plate than tube and fin. And even then the f1 intercooler is about 10x more complex and probably impossible to produce for any production car.
Quick google seems to say IanCH is right. Looks like they may use Tube and fin, but it's an air to oil or coolant setup rather than air to air which is what our cars run. Which the restated logic seems to say Bar and plate are better for air to air heat transfer.
https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/car-cooling-systems-explained#:~:text=These run at much lower,the back of the car.
Ok gents.
The fluid cooled charge cooling may have begun in just the past 5 or so years; before then, it was T&F. The adaptation was only do to reduce drag. They are still T&F.

Attempt not to argue my points, rather argue your own points.
 

StorableComa

Go Kart Champion
Location
Long Beach, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S
The BMS would benefit you both in price and performance on your IS20 choice. You still get more Core Volume than stock with the same surface area.
Thanks for the info! Kinda the logic I was going with. I'd like to jump up into the $700ish range as I also like the Mishimoto and the others just under the 900ish roof, a lot of good info on Mishimoto's site and great reviews. Only reason I considered the Majesty is the huge volume, but then things start getting fuzzy when you start talking pressure drop. The Original Bar and fin setup had great logs, but I don't think anyone has posted many for the new tube and fin model i've come across with the name now.

Lights won't be in till Novemberish, so maybe I'll get lucky with a sale or an ebay coupon +free shipping.


Ok gents.
The fluid cooled charge cooling may have begun in just the past 5 or so years; before then, it was T&F. The adaptation was only do to reduce drag. They are still T&F.

Attempt not to argue my points, rather argue your own points.
I just did a quick google and was playing devils advocate to air to air setups vs air to air/coolant intercoolers. More that in all the reading i've done seems to point to bar and plate as being more effective in Air to air for an intercooler on WOT/Back to back pulls. I'm more here for the information and input of those who have done a FMIC/TMIC install than the ongoing pissing contests. If you have logs, or a thread you'd like to point me to i'm all for it. I'm trying to find the balance of fun DD, with some reliability on the side and maybe a little headroom in the IC department. (y)
 

StorableComa

Go Kart Champion
Location
Long Beach, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S
I was looking more at the IATs from the logs over ambient than the flow test. I feel i'd have to determine how restrictive the small overhang over my front plate is (bought used, already drilled and not a fan of bumper plugs) and if I have different dimensions for stock opens on upper and lower grill vs GTI/R - Which would require way more reading than i've done and would probably only serve to make things all more fuzzy again.

I'll read over the ECS, the issue I have with the GSW 1.8T is the ECS isn't a direct fit. I've read I would potentially need to shave the bumper and other things. Which why not just get a majesty if I'm modifying? For the price of a FMIC from what i've read i'd go with the ARM FMIC as it claims to be a no modification fit and I haven't read anything to the contrary. https://www.armmotorsports.com/products/mk7-fmic-kit
 
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