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FMIC questions

Chogokin

Drag Racing Champion
Location
So Cal
Car(s)
GTI Sport | Audi A3
I posted that link because it looks like they did a pretty detailed job a testing the three intercoolers. I'm not trying to sell anyone on the ECS one. Regarding the ARM...I'm willing to bet that you'll have to trim the inside of your Golf bumper the same way my friend had to trim his to get the NS IS38 one to fit.. They all pretty much install the same way. The GTI has a bunch of room behind the front bumper...the Golf may not have the same amount of clearance.
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
I was looking more at the IATs from the logs over ambient than the flow test. I feel i'd have to determine how restrictive the small overhang over my front plate is (bought used, already drilled and not a fan of bumper plugs) and if I have different dimensions for stock opens on upper and lower grill vs GTI/R - Which would require way more reading than i've done and would probably only serve to make things all more fuzzy again.

I'll read over the ECS, the issue I have with the GSW 1.8T is the ECS isn't a direct fit. I've read I would potentially need to shave the bumper and other things. Which why not just get a majesty if I'm modifying? For the price of a FMIC from what i've read i'd go with the ARM FMIC as it claims to be a no modification fit and I haven't read anything to the contrary. https://www.armmotorsports.com/products/mk7-fmic-kit
That link is for the GTI.
 

StorableComa

Go Kart Champion
Location
Long Beach, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S
That link is for the GTI.
Which one? The ARM One? The website states:
HIGHLIGHTS
• Gain up to 24whp/26wtq
• 74% Increase in Cooling Efficiency
• True Front Mount Design
• 100% Bolt-On Installation
• No Cutting or Drilling Required


If you scroll to the bottom the 1.8T GSW is listed in the fitment guide.
I posted that link because it looks like they did a pretty detailed job a testing the three intercoolers. I'm not trying to sell anyone on the ECS one. Regarding the ARM...I'm willing to bet that you'll have to trim the inside of your Golf bumper the same way my friend had to trim his to get the NS IS38 one to fit.. They all pretty much install the same way. The GTI has a bunch of room behind the front bumper...the Golf may not have the same amount of clearance.
From what i've seen, granted there is not much as this seems to be a newer kit - It doesn't require any modification.
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
Which one? The ARM One? The website states:
HIGHLIGHTS
• Gain up to 24whp/26wtq
• 74% Increase in Cooling Efficiency
• True Front Mount Design
• 100% Bolt-On Installation
• No Cutting or Drilling Required


If you scroll to the bottom the 1.8T GSW is listed in the fitment guide.


From what i've seen, granted there is not much as this seems to be a newer kit - It doesn't require any modification.
You're right I didn't scroll far enough. It's bar and plate also which is much better for a true FMIC because bar and plate is less susceptible to damage from road debris like rocks.
 

StorableComa

Go Kart Champion
Location
Long Beach, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S
You're right I didn't scroll far enough. It's bar and plate also which is much better for a true FMIC because bar and plate is less susceptible to damage from road debris like rocks.
Good point, I didn't even consider that aspect. I've read a few people like FMIC's for the AC condenser protection. Though at that price point, I fall back to the BMS stock location replacement. Yeah it's more work, but I gain more frontal area and potentially maybe a little more volume. Unless everything i've been reading isn't clicking right, that would be a pro, right?
 

IanCH

Go Kart Newbie
Location
MA
Car(s)
'20 GTI Autobahn
It's more work twice unless you sell the car modded.

I think I already mentioned it in this thread but I've lost the AC condenser to a rock on my golf r. Not a fun issue to deal with although it can be protected with aluminum screen as an alternative.
 

StorableComa

Go Kart Champion
Location
Long Beach, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S
Plan to drive it until it blows up, and even then some maybe. This car isn't going anywhere, at least in my case. So IC will live and die in the car unless I find a new DD and decide to just go IS38 balls to the wall with it.

I know there was a stock IC delete kit for the MK6 that seemed kinda pointless, but are there recommendations for what to do with the dead weight in the heat sandwich if you run a FMIC? Pull it and plug in a slightly bigger radiator, or run a twintercooler setup? Read a bit on those, but admittedly I just assumed if they were more effective than either FMIC/TMIC they'd be more popular.
 
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StorableComa

Go Kart Champion
Location
Long Beach, USA
Car(s)
17 GSW S
The OEM intercooler holds both the radiator and the AC condenser, so it’s not just a remove it kinda job.
I'm aware all three clip in together to make up the main cooling core. Just curious if anyone had come up with a kit/diy for making use of the extra space.
The stock intercooler is 7.4 lbs. I would think the weight is pretty negligible.
I agree, and being FWD a little extra weight over the nose is good for traction. Just curious as I know there was a lot of talk about leaving a dead heat exchange in the stack and air flow yadda yadda yadda FMIC's make AC run worse, no wait better. I know someone earlier had mentioned someone might be looking at Oil/Tranny cooler kit in the location?

When I had my Mk6 R I know a lot of people liked to go FMIC and larger radiator. iMOD comes to mind off the top of my head, granted that was a crazier build than I plan.
 

GTI Jake

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte, NC
I'm aware all three clip in together to make up the main cooling core. Just curious if anyone had come up with a kit/diy for making use of the extra space.

I agree, and being FWD a little extra weight over the nose is good for traction. Just curious as I know there was a lot of talk about leaving a dead heat exchange in the stack and air flow yadda yadda yadda FMIC's make AC run worse, no wait better. I know someone earlier had mentioned someone might be looking at Oil/Tranny cooler kit in the location?

When I had my Mk6 R I know a lot of people liked to go FMIC and larger radiator. iMOD comes to mind off the top of my head, granted that was a crazier build than I plan.
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-ultimate-mk7-cooling-solution.371514/
 

git_fan

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
2016 GTI
Sure go shop the explanation you got from a mechanical engineer who concentrated in thermal fluids and has years of practical design and implementation experience with the marketing people and mechanics at the suppliers. I'm sure they won't lie to you to boost their product.

I don't have any reason to lie to you and everything I said is independently verifiable if you go get an engineering degree or maybe even a thermals textbook if you're motivated...
The idea that somebody like BMS or Unitronic can sell a lower cost B&P that is supposedly an all around superior performing product, while suppliers like Wagner, whom I've had an IC from previously that was B&P, would choose for this application to use T&F, leads me to think that it there may be other considerations, and not simply cost.

Sure they have some bias, but they also have options to sell either design and they picked a T&F. I don't think you're lying, but I also don't take what you say as the last word on intercooler design.
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From the Wager FAQ. They let you configure your own custom IC and have both B&P and T&F as options.

"The fundamental difference between performance on the one hand and competition on the other lies in the structure of the intercooler net. In the area of performance, it is a bar & plate net, while we use a tube fin net for our charge air coolers from the competition area.

The bar & plate net originally comes from simple industrial production and has been used as a charge air cooler network for a long time, because it can be produced cheaply in any version. The basic structure of this network, however, ensures a higher weight or an increased proportion of material, which leads to the storage of the heat from the charge air if the load continues. The production of a tube fin net is more complex and therefore more expensive due to the necessary use of special tools. This type of net has a significantly lower proportion of material - and therefore less weight -, which means that the tube fin net can better dissipate the high temperatures to the environment and thus work even more efficiently.
"
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Reply from do88:

This is a topic that always seems to be a subject that causes discussions in the car tuning world. I will try to give some input to help out here!

First of all the most important thing is that you can make both tube&fin and bar&plate cores with many different specifications so there are no way to predicte the performance by the type of core.

So there are no such things that one of the design have more internal than external surf contact area. That is correct if you have a core with empty internal channels which can be made with both core types.

The weight (mass) in the intercooler only affects cooling in the beginning but as soon as the mass have been heated it does not help cooling any more but it do takes a bit longer to cool it down afterwards. So the b&p core are a bit slower in temperature changes compares to t&f, both up and down.

So if you design a b&p and a t&f core with the same internal and external fins, the same internal tube width and the same width/height they will be very very close to each other when it comes to heat dissipation. We have done a lot of tests, including the one just described.

The type of tube and fin core we use in our intercooler is not cheaper to make than a bar&plate, at least not in small series as we do. If you go to vehicle manufacturer production volumes it will probably cheaper.

If you look at the intercooler core type used in WRC cars for example you will see that tube&fin cores works well.

So the reason we choose tube&fin in our intercooler is simply that the performance is the same but the weight is much less.
But it costs more to start a production of a tube&fin core so it is not possible to do this in all cases. The bar&plate is much easier and cheaper to adapt in size for small series productions.

Just ask if anything is unclear!

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git_fan

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
2016 GTI
Here is ECS's test data. They compared stock, to a stock location aftermarket one, and their own FMIC. It looks pretty detailed. For some of the tests they tapped the end tanks so they can get data from the inlet and outlet. Looks like a pretty detailed test. A lot more than that "flow test".

http://bd8ba3c866c8cbc330ab-7b26c6f...7_Front_Mount_Intercooler_Testing_Results.pdf
They show a 0.5 psi difference in pressure drop across the three products tested while the IC inlet temperature has a 60 degree difference. That much pressure difference should not produce a temperature change as great as what they show.
 

Hollywood0220

Go Kart Newbie
Location
NW
Car(s)
German/Japanese
They show a 0.5 psi difference in pressure drop across the three products tested while the IC inlet temperature has a 60 degree difference. That much pressure difference should not produce a temperature change as great as what they show.
The Inlet Temp in the second graph should be close to equal with the others - unless the engine wasn’t run as long, on a different boost, or on a different turbo.
And
You need to question why pressure drop is measured at 6250rpm; since boost has already steadily tapered down by then. Besides, pressure drop doesn’t soley stem from an intercooler - it begins all the way back from the intake itself and through the entire path into the manifold.
Pressure drop can be measured from the Hot side and Cold side and determining the differential in pressure.

OE fitment is the all around winner by a long shot. Can’t beat the “surface area & volume”.
 
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