Track TEMP DATA: IC and radiator combo data collection - ALL YOUR LOGS ARE BELONG TO US!

[ironicbadger]

Wouldn't hurt just to have another different sample with the same car. Though that's not the stock IC + stock tune I need for an IS38.

If track time wasn’t so expensive I’d offer to put the stock IC back in but ain’t no one got time for downgrades.

 

[DerHase]

Another submission from @Mini7

 

[DerHase]

Added a few more samples: one from @q74

Full report of all the logs, etc:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17OmZvC_tlsmpFnLV45jxSy9Ocyry3ZaX/view?usp=drive_link

New entry for q74: Main difference over last time is the EQT tune.

His old log from stock tune for reference:

Even with the added power, looks like overall temps hardly changed at all. Similar ambient temps as well. I think because Mosport DDT is a much lower overall speed track, it's not really going to be too bad on these cars heat-generation-wise.

 

[DerHase]

I finally got to test my hood vent at VIR last Thursday:

First log was from the tail end of the first session of the day (I ran in afternoon only, this was ~1:30pm for reference). I had a bit of traffic in the first half of the session, but this snapshot of data is taken from 20 to 23 minutes into a 25 minute session. I never let off of pushing the car (even though it was slow AF due to the ridiculous heat) and 277F oil temp (actual, on the dash) was the highest I could force it to go.

I WAS having issues with excessive timing pull (which will generate more heat) due to sucking oil from the PCV (detailed in my build thread here: https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.ph...-edition-hpde-shenanigans.401435/post-7983702 ) which may affect it in some way.

Because I had always previously driven with the engine cover ON, I left it on for this first session as a baseline:

I fought issues with the EPC light cutting power and excessiving ignition pull again in the second session, and the third session my EPC light was on but no (overly noticeable) power loss so I made another effort to test without the engine cover on. I had issues with the logger losing connection over curbs, but this is a 200 second snip taken from the end of the 25 min session:

The car was WAY slowed down from the power being pulled, as evidenced by the lower average speed but higher TPS %.

Temperatures across the board were all just a hair lower, while the ambient a hair higher with engine cover off vs on. Probably within noise of driving consistency, etc.

Honestly I was hoping for better cooling results from the hood vent, BUT I still think it's overall a success considering this was in ~20F hotter ambient temps than I'd logged before. Combined with the EPC/knock retard issues I was having, I think there's a chance that if I can get my PCV issue sorted, temps should be overall lower next time without these problems, even if it's just a bit. Coolant temps MIN seen on track was ~16F higher than prior, coolant temp MAX about 3F hotter than prior, and coolant temp AVG was about 10F higher than before in cooler temps.

IF anyone will be at Fastivus at Summit Point on September 30th, let me know and I'll loan you a dongle to help log this stuff and add to it!

 

[steddy2112]

I would to provide some data eventually, but this thread has been nice to read through. Once I get my car back I'll give details, sign up for a track day, and run some logs for science.

 

[yakboyslim]

I'll be at Fastivus, and I'll actually get good continuous logs this time. That will hopefully give a good side by side with your results.

For your last results I think low power due to ignition retard is a really bad one for cooling temps. The same energy (fuel) is being used, just not turned into mechanical energy, so probably even more of it becomes heat. How much of that leaves via the exhaust etc, I don't know. But I think you could probably look at your higher TPS and lower speed as if they were representative. So if it was 20f hotter out, slower, with higher throttle, and your temps were the same - that's probably a decent cooling improvement.

 

[DerHase]

I'll be at Fastivus, and I'll actually get good continuous logs this time. That will hopefully give a good side by side with your results.

For your last results I think low power due to ignition retard is a really bad one for cooling temps. The same energy (fuel) is being used, just not turned into mechanical energy, so probably even more of it becomes heat. How much of that leaves via the exhaust etc, I don't know. But I think you could probably look at your higher TPS and lower speed as if they were representative. So if it was 20f hotter out, slower, with higher throttle, and your temps were the same - that's probably a decent cooling improvement.

One thing I've found with the dongles is that they get knocked loose easily over curbing. Never been able to duplicate problems on the street, but bending all the pins slightly so it grabs the port harder helps a lot. I had a bit of cutting out the past couple times, but logging consistency definitely improved over prior to doing that.

Also have to account for burning ~1.5 qts of oil over 3 sessions... That's even more energy converted to heat

 

[meb58]

...as a small narrative to all of the above, while I was on pit row at Lime Rock this past weekend speaking with one of the GTD class Aston Martin engineers about their hood vent design, cooling etc, he said, and without giving intellectual knowledge away, that they devote a tremendous amount of time data logging in addition to aerodynamics testing, which shouldn't come as a surprise.

From a purely observational perspective, the MK7 's engine sites about 6" behind the back of the radiator...the Aston Martin's engine sits about 2' behind the radiator with contoured channels directing air from behind a very large radiator/fan assembly. It is very difficult to manage air flow in front of the GTi's stubby front end and from within the very tight engine bay. It might be very interesting to observe how the MK7 GTi TCR race car manages airflow through the bumper, radiator and the hood...

Thank you for all of the above work...I am just beginning to set my GTi up for the track...

 

[DerHase]

...as a small narrative to all of the above, while I was on pit row at Lime Rock this past weekend speaking with one of the GTD class Aston Martin engineers about their hood vent design, cooling etc, he said, and without giving intellectual knowledge away, that they devote a tremendous amount of time data logging in addition to aerodynamics testing, which shouldn't come as a surprise.

From a purely observational perspective, the MK7 's engine sites about 6" behind the back of the radiator...the Aston Martin's engine sits about 2' behind the radiator with contoured channels directing air from behind a very large radiator/fan assembly. It is very difficult to manage air flow in front of the GTi's stubby front end and from within the very tight engine bay. It might be very interesting to observe how the MK7 GTi TCR race car manages airflow through the bumper, radiator and the hood...

Thank you for all of the above work...I am just beginning to set my GTi up for the track...

Yeah, the lack of space under the hood is absolutely a huge problem for cooling. My next move will be gutting a cooling fan shroud based on this info:
https://racelouvers.com/content/Race-Louvers-Fan-Shroud-Wind-Tunnel-Data.pdf

I have actually spent a bit of time around a TCR car last year and took a ton of photos.

There's a dedicated duct for the IC, dedicated ducts for the brakes, and the radiator shroud is literally just some thin metal holding a fan in place:

Also of course there's no condenser in the way as well. I have more photos of it here:
https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.ph...-edition-hpde-shenanigans.401435/post-7891273

And here:
https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.ph...-edition-hpde-shenanigans.401435/post-7891379

I just snagged a used fan shroud to experiment with.

Unfortunately there just isn't enough room for a proper duct on the back of the radiator. Here's a really well done one on an NC Miata I drove to PA to help a friend potentially buy (he ended up not - way too much one-off stuff that he could never duplicate/replace and that reality hit him when we looked at it in person):

 

[Chogokin]

It might be very interesting to observe how the MK7 GTi TCR race car manages airflow through the bumper, radiator and the hood...

So far...I don't think I've seen anyone try this.

Is it also a factory intercooler? Looks like a VW/Audi logo on the end tank.

 

[DerHase]

So far...I don't think I've seen anyone try this.


Is it also a factory intercooler? Looks like a VW/Audi logo on the end tank.

Honestly (engine-wise) the TCR car is not anything amazing. It's some kind of OEM Audi IC (IIRC RS3?), the radiator core is from a 3.6 Passat I believe, etc. I'm almost positive the "lock carrier" is a completely custom part to make everything fit. Also the car is capped at 345hp which I believe is measured at the crank.

This dyno of two TCR cars shows them at 298whp and 307whp for reference:

Those cars work on track because they're detuned to roughly IS20 stage 1 type performance, with a less-hot running IS38 turbo.

I don't think that kind of ducting/radiator/IC setup could be done on a car successfully with retaining functional AC.

 

[meb58]

...I know that I kind of veered from your original data logging post, apologies. ...I do find heat extraction to be an interesting and related subject...maybe worth it's own thread...

"...less hot running IS38 turbo" ...funny that I wondered about building reasonable power, and not a time bomb, with durability being the ultimate goal...which kind of means tempering power output. I love this stuff! Haven't worked on a car in 15 years!

Again, thank you for all of the above...this is a great thread!

 

[meb58]

Yeah, the lack of space under the hood is absolutely a huge problem for cooling. My next move will be gutting a cooling fan shroud based on this info:
https://racelouvers.com/content/Race-Louvers-Fan-Shroud-Wind-Tunnel-Data.pdf

I have actually spent a bit of time around a TCR car last year and took a ton of photos.

There's a dedicated duct for the IC, dedicated ducts for the brakes, and the radiator shroud is literally just some thin metal holding a fan in place:

View attachment 287001

Also of course there's no condenser in the way as well. I have more photos of it here:
https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.ph...-edition-hpde-shenanigans.401435/post-7891273

And here:
https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.ph...-edition-hpde-shenanigans.401435/post-7891379

I just snagged a used fan shroud to experiment with.

Unfortunately there just isn't enough room for a proper duct on the back of the radiator. Here's a really well done one on an NC Miata I drove to PA to help a friend potentially buy (he ended up not - way too much one-off stuff that he could never duplicate/replace and that reality hit him when we looked at it in person):

Wow, fan shrouds...who woulda thunk that? That's a gold nugget! While poking around the engine bay, it was impossible to ignore the shroud, the flaps etc all impeding airflow from a track driving perspective.

 

[steddy2112]

Yeah, the lack of space under the hood is absolutely a huge problem for cooling. My next move will be gutting a cooling fan shroud based on this info:
https://racelouvers.com/content/Race-Louvers-Fan-Shroud-Wind-Tunnel-Data.pdf

I have actually spent a bit of time around a TCR car last year and took a ton of photos.

There's a dedicated duct for the IC, dedicated ducts for the brakes, and the radiator shroud is literally just some thin metal holding a fan in place:

View attachment 287001

Also of course there's no condenser in the way as well. I have more photos of it here:
https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.ph...-edition-hpde-shenanigans.401435/post-7891273

And here:
https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.ph...-edition-hpde-shenanigans.401435/post-7891379

I just snagged a used fan shroud to experiment with.

Unfortunately there just isn't enough room for a proper duct on the back of the radiator. Here's a really well done one on an NC Miata I drove to PA to help a friend potentially buy (he ended up not - way too much one-off stuff that he could never duplicate/replace and that reality hit him when we looked at it in person):

Condensers end up being a real problem when dealing with cooling issues, I bet every one of us who have cooling issues would have zero by literally just getting rid of the A/C setup.

Supercharged Cobalts used to have cooling issues with running smaller pulleys, because, well, that's what superchargers do. Had a buddy who removed the condenser and never saw IAT2s above 10º ambient.

On a supercharged car.

Kinda hard to want to shitbox a car that one of the better things about it, is that's it is a decent place to be but at this point it comes down to either:

Making less power, taking away a heat source, or mildly hating life and spending too much money/time to rethink the whole process of how to cool a car without a lot of frontal area.

I will say the TCR approach of moving shit around is a pretty good one, I'm wondering if mimicking a setup like that but leaving the rad/condens setup in the OEM places and having hood vents would do the trick.

I know for a FACT there is zero reason any of us running aftermarket intercoolers need ones the size we do. The only reason the market sways on the "holy fuck way too big" size is because of it's location. I ran a 2871R(.64 A/R at that) setup on a turbo Cobalt with a smaller intercooler than the APR one and typically had IAT2s that started below ambient, no matter how hot it was, and wouldn't really get above maybe 10-20º higher than ambient unless I was doing hero highway pulls. Stock location for their I/C is FMIC, followed by condenser, and then rad.

Has anyone with a FMIC setup on our cars chimed in or offered up some logs? Especially if they removed the stock location I/C, could be as simple as that.

 

[tigeo]

Wow, fan shrouds...who woulda thunk that? That's a gold nugget! While poking around the engine bay, it was impossible to ignore the shroud, the flaps etc all impeding airflow from a track driving perspective.

For being stuck in low speed/traffic work great...for max power high speeds not so much