Track TEMP DATA: IC and radiator combo data collection - ALL YOUR LOGS ARE BELONG TO US!

[tigeo]

Condensers end up being a real problem when dealing with cooling issues, I bet every one of us who have cooling issues would have zero by literally just getting rid of the A/C setup.

Supercharged Cobalts used to have cooling issues with running smaller pulleys, because, well, that's what superchargers do. Had a buddy who removed the condenser and never saw IAT2s above 10º ambient.

On a supercharged car.

Kinda hard to want to shitbox a car that one of the better things about it, is that's it is a decent place to be but at this point it comes down to either:

Making less power, taking away a heat source, or mildly hating life and spending too much money/time to rethink the whole process of how to cool a car without a lot of frontal area.

I will say the TCR approach of moving shit around is a pretty good one, I'm wondering if mimicking a setup like that but leaving the rad/condens setup in the OEM places and having hood vents would do the trick.

I know for a FACT there is zero reason any of us running aftermarket intercoolers need ones the size we do. The only reason the market sways on the "holy fuck way too big" size is because of it's location. I ran a 2871R(.64 A/R at that) setup on a turbo Cobalt with a smaller intercooler than the APR one and typically had IAT2s that started below ambient, no matter how hot it was, and wouldn't really get above maybe 10-20º higher than ambient unless I was doing hero highway pulls. Stock location for their I/C is FMIC, followed by condenser, and then rad.

Has anyone with a FMIC setup on our cars chimed in or offered up some logs? Especially if they removed the stock location I/C, could be as simple as that.

Below ambient...how is that possible without water meth or spraying etc.?

I agree however that the AC condenser is certainly part of the overall issue and agree you shouldn't need a ginormous IC like our aftermarket stock location ones which goes back to the AC condenser and general configuration of our engine bays. All a compromise...you either accept the limitations and have a nice daily that can handle some HPDE track time or you go racekor and be miserable daily driving it.

 

[steddy2112]

Below ambient...how is that possible without water meth or spraying etc.?

I agree however that the AC condenser is certainly part of the overall issue and agree you shouldn't need a ginormous IC like our aftermarket stock location ones which goes back to the AC condenser and general configuration of our engine bays. All a compromise...you either accept the limitations and have a nice daily that can handle some HPDE track time or you go racekor and be miserable daily driving it.

Early morning posts aren't always my forte lol, below ambient cruising at highway speed and by not overspinning the blower/being on a pulley that GM warrantied.

I was sitting shotgun and logging said car with HPTuners on my laptop. Was about 75F that day.

Oh and definitely a compromise, but I'd be willing to change to a FMIC and stop overspinning the IS38 if it meant I could go a full session without having to dial it back by the end of it because of heat.

An E85 tune that makes the same power as a 93 octane tune would solve the problem outright without changing anything else cooling wise.

Then there's the can of worms of how much E is in the E85, finding it, being able to switch maps, having the fueling setup to run it, PLUS the extra oil dilution caused by cyl washdown.

Could chemically cool with water injection or combo it with methanol, then depending on how hot it is, you run into the "what if I run out" game.

I mean both E85 and WMI allows for higher cylinder pressures due to their greater cooling properties and thus more power, so if tuned to make the level of current power, it'd cool everything way off.


lol fkn inconvenient

 

[DerHase]

Early morning posts aren't always my forte lol, below ambient cruising at highway speed and by not overspinning the blower/being on a pulley that GM warrantied.

I was sitting shotgun and logging said car with HPTuners on my laptop. Was about 75F that day.

Oh and definitely a compromise, but I'd be willing to change to a FMIC and stop overspinning the IS38 if it meant I could go a full session without having to dial it back by the end of it because of heat.

An E85 tune that makes the same power as a 93 octane tune would solve the problem outright without changing anything else cooling wise.

Then there's the can of worms of how much E is in the E85, finding it, being able to switch maps, having the fueling setup to run it, PLUS the extra oil dilution caused by cyl washdown.

Could chemically cool with water injection or combo it with methanol, then depending on how hot it is, you run into the "what if I run out" game.

I mean both E85 and WMI allows for higher cylinder pressures due to their greater cooling properties and thus more power, so if tuned to make the level of current power, it'd cool everything way off.


lol fkn inconvenient

@tigeo is referring to you cannot go below ambient (in or out of boost) without chemical intercooling/meth/etc. I assure you that your IATs were not “truly” below ambient. It’s shitty GM sensor logic and/or location. Heat soaking the AAT sensor (such as with a FMIC nearby) can make it look like your IATs are better than they actually are.

FWIW we do have one sample from a FMIC car in the pdf. Open it and Ctrl + F to search for “FMIC” and you’ll find it. It’s not any better (or worse) than other large stock location ICs.

Tune wise, timing helps with heat. Dial back the boost and add as much timing as you can safely get away with.

I’m playing around with that concept on my car now, rather than 24psi tapered to 18psi near redline I’m targeting 21-15 now, but with about 3-4 deg more timing. Initial testing seems promising (hitting same "calculated hp" numbers in Simos Tools on the street as before, except it does it even when it's 90F outside).

Need to get my PCV issues sorted before anything else though before testing it out on track.

 

[tigeo]

@tigeo is referring to you cannot go below ambient (in or out of boost) without chemical intercooling/meth/etc. I assure you that your IATs were not “truly” below ambient. It’s shitty GM sensor logic and/or location. Heat soaking the AAT sensor (such as with a FMIC nearby) can make it look like your IATs are better than they actually are.

FWIW we do have one sample from a FMIC car in the pdf. Open it and Ctrl + F to search for “FMIC” and you’ll find it. It’s not any better (or worse) than other large stock location ICs.

Tune wise, timing helps with heat. Dial back the boost and add as much timing as you can safely get away with.

I’m playing around with that concept on my car now, rather than 24psi tapered to 18psi near redline I’m targeting 21-15 now, but with about 3-4 deg more timing.

Need to get my PCV issues sorted before anything else though before testing it out on track.

I'm looking forward to logging my car
(dongle is on its way!) to see how the higher timing/lower boost Unitronic IS38 tune (with ~E20) looks on track at Dominion in a few weeks.

 

[meb58]

 

[Superfreak]

Sorry I’m a little lost in this thread but willing to share data if it helps. Is there any value in me going out and logging in ~80° temps at 8-9k’? I’ll be happy to log and share but not trying to waste anyone’s time.

If you have any specific test parameters, I’d love to hear them. I’ve done thermovac testing for spacecraft so I’m a big fan of test procedures, or I can just go out and rip around a bit and log, if that’s helpful.

 

[DerHase]

Sorry I’m a little lost in this thread but willing to share data if it helps. Is there any value in me going out and logging in ~80° temps at 8-9k’? I’ll be happy to log and share but not trying to waste anyone’s time.

If you have any specific test parameters, I’d love to hear them. I’ve done thermovac testing for spacecraft so I’m a big fan of test procedures, or I can just go out and rip around a bit and log, if that’s helpful.

Wouldn’t really be helpful, this is attempting to draw cause-effect relationships between various mods when driven on track, which is way harder on everything than you could ever duplicate on the street.

You’ll just never get enough heat into the car (and long enough) to have everything stabilize at max temp. And even if you could, it’s not on a closed circuit so the variability would be hard to account for. We’ve already seen that the track in question has a lot to do with it. Lower average speeds and average TPS just doesn’t tax the car as much.

My last couple logs the oil temps were 265-275F for 15 minutes straight for reference.

I have some info on how the data is collected here on page 1:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17OmZvC_tlsmpFnLV45jxSy9Ocyry3ZaX/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[Superfreak]

Wouldn’t really be helpful, this is attempting to draw cause-effect relationships between various mods when driven on track, which is way harder on everything than you could ever duplicate on the street.

You’ll just never get enough heat into the car (and long enough) to have everything stabilize at max temp. And even if you could, it’s not on a closed circuit so the variability would be hard to account for. We’ve already seen that the track in question has a lot to do with it. Lower average speeds and average TPS just doesn’t tax the car as much.

My last couple logs the oil temps were 265-275F for 15 minutes straight for reference.

I have some info on how the data is collected here on page 1:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17OmZvC_tlsmpFnLV45jxSy9Ocyry3ZaX/view?usp=drivesdk

Ok cool. Yeah I agree that I’m not going to be able to get to the high operating temps and sustain for relatively long periods. I did see my oil temp up at 260° on the way up a mountain the other evening. It was about 50°, so we were moving, but that was for less than 10 mins. Good luck on this, I’ll hope you get good data and are able to affect the end result as intended.

 

[DerHase]

It was brought to my attention that Cobb logs "boost" differently than how Simos Tools is configured which means the average boost numbers were way off depending on which two samples are being compared.

Cobb calculates boost by taking PUT sensor - ambient pressure sensor.
Since the PUT sensor is pre-throttle body, it'll never see vacuum.

If you're monitoring boost via the MAP sensor (which most OBDII readers will do, and how ST reads it) then it'll see vacuum (about -10ish psi off-throttle) then the negative values will drag down the average boost pressure.

So I went through and filtered ALL the logs to only display 0psi+ to make one log comparable to another. It also makes a bit more sense now since higher average boost also will track with higher average TPS as well (and speed to some extent, more straights = more time WOT).

Big thanks to @aaronc7 for pointing this out!

Everything now updated:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17OmZvC_tlsmpFnLV45jxSy9Ocyry3ZaX/view?usp=sharing

You'll notice some of the "boost" visualizations start at 0, some start at 0.03 or so, this is just because the data set never hit exactly "0", which is more likely to happen when logging on something slower like a Cobb AP or Mode 22 in ST. Statistically it's pretty insignificant and isn't worth mentioning. I figure comparing boost values from car to car is probably a fudge factor of +/-1ish psi anyway, and stuff like IATs probably +/-5 deg or so.

 

[DerHase]

Added @MonkeyMD 's data from his trip to MSR:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17OmZvC_tlsmpFnLV45jxSy9Ocyry3ZaX/view?usp=drive_link

Winning the coolant temps seen so far


That Mishimoto IC seems to be pretty darn good for track work as far as IATs go... but I have to wonder how much air flows through it externally. Visually looking at photos, it seems like a REALLY dense core which *could* explain high ECTs and lower IATs.

 

[MonkeyMD]

Sucks that oil temp wasn't logged. It was definitely up there

 

[SierraCarrera]

Sorry I'm a bit late to the game, is there a thread/guide about how to setup the logging you are looking for? I have the Mishimoto IC and will be running a few weekends at Mid-Ohio this fall, would definitely like to provide some of this data. I have an OBD11 if that works or would I need to purchase another setup entirely?

 

[DerHase]

Sorry I'm a bit late to the game, is there a thread/guide about how to setup the logging you are looking for? I have the Mishimoto IC and will be running a few weekends at Mid-Ohio this fall, would definitely like to provide some of this data. I have an OBD11 if that works or would I need to purchase another setup entirely?

It should be pretty straightforward logging with OBD11 - you can probably PM @tigeo for more specific help.

But in a nut shell log the following for me:
- Intake air temp (not charge air temp!)
- Ambient air temp
- Oil temp. Let me know if if matches the dash reading or not. If not it's modeled, if so it's "actual" as far as my own testing can tell.
- Engine coolant temp
- TPS % (throttle body, not pedal). This is because the pedal can be mapped differently depending on tune and removes that variable.
- Vehicle speed
- Boost (in psi). If not, then get me PUT (pressure upstream of turbo) and Ambient Air *Pressure* and I can calculate boost, though getting it directly saves me some time. This isn't 100% absolutely necessary, but is helpful to gauge overall stress the car is being put under.

And it should be useable.

If you have an Android device, what is far better for logging is Simos Tools with an SL1 or Maccina A0 dongle.

You can PM @aaronc7 as I think he has some leftover dongles for sale.
More info on the Simos Tools logging capabilities are here:
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/ecu-logging-capability.420890/

If you have any interest in data logging on track (which I highly suggest, as that is how we found out @Redslaya had some IAT issues) then the Simos Tools logging is hands down the easiest way since you can configure it to trigger based on stuff like pressing the cruise control button, a min vehicle speed (when at the track I set logging to start at 30mph so it syncs very closely with my Garmin Catalyst which also starts at 30mph), etc. Or if you just wanted to find out when knock is occuring you could set it to record any knock events < 0. It has a LOT of capabilities... whereas with OBD11 you have to manually select all of the logging parameters every single time, and I believe is also a lot slower refresh rate as well. But @tigeo can speak to that better as well since he just got set up on ST as well.

One last tip is to make sure whatever dongle you're using is SECURE. If it fits even somewhat loosely just gently bend the pins a bit so they try to keep the dongle tight in the OBD2 port.

 

[tigeo]

Logging with OBDEleven in my video here...of course please like/sub (that goes for all of you scallywags here!):

 

[scrllock]

people are logging with obd11 on track? i can't imagine sitting there in grid hoping it pairs in time to get all of the params added in to log at 4hz.