DerHase
Autocross Champion
- Location
- Hampton Roads, VA
- Car(s)
- 2019 GTI Rabbit
This thread is mostly to show that everything works TOGETHER and just throwing all the garbage that everyone sells for these cars on without proper DATA results in a lot of a wasted money.
If you want to submit me a log, I ABSOLUTELY NEED THE FOLLOWING (prefer degrees F, but can work with deg C if needed):
- Intake air temp (not charge air temp!)
- Ambient air temp
- Oil temp. Let me know if if matches the dash reading or not. If not it's modeled, if so it's "actual" as far as my own testing can tell.
- Engine coolant temp
- TPS % (throttle body, not pedal). This is because the pedal can be mapped differently depending on tune and removes that variable.
- Vehicle speed
- Boost (in psi). If not, then get me PUT (pressure upstream of turbo) and Ambient Air *Pressure* and I can calculate boost, though getting it directly saves me some time. This isn't 100% absolutely necessary, but is helpful to gauge overall stress the car is being put under.
I might make an exception if ONE of the above parameters are missing, but if any two are missing, or if one of those is IAT/AAT/ECT then it probably won't be worth adding to the PDF.
When you PM or post it, please give the following info as well:
User: __________
Vehicle: 20XX VW/Audi __________
Trans: DSG or 6MT
Track: __________ <--- with configuration if multiple (VIR Full, Grand Course, North, etc)
Tune: __________ <--- Also mention fuel used.
Turbo: (IS20/IS38/Other)
Intercooler: MFR + SMIC/FMIC location
Downpipe: Stock/AM <--- list brand if aftermarket
Radiator(s): Stock/CSF/DO88
Other cooling: _________ <--- List ANY other cooling mods that help airflow or may affect it. Wing/splitter/undertray/hood or fender vents/etc.
edit #3: I recently started using Microsoft Power BI which is really handy for creating visuals. This means I can just publish all the data gathered with a small chart and simple "gauges" to show min/average/max readings during the 200 second snapshot of track driving. It also means all the records are easily searchable by using ctrl+F so if it gets extensive, you can check for "EQT" or "APR" or whatever you want. Since this is all part of one "presentation" it also means all the data remains intact since I'm trimming it directly in Power BI, and eventually might get to the point of adding additional charts with stuff like average TPS vs oil or coolant temps to find a trend, etc.
Link here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17OmZvC_tlsmpFnLV45jxSy9Ocyry3ZaX/view?usp=sharing
Example of one of the data sheets:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
edit #2: I'm going to attempt to catalog some reference samples now that I have a few.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BzLSSdXMxIuBQukLpfR0y79UY23l-ljpYSVHgaA8rMc/edit?usp=sharing
A few IMPORTANT things to note when viewing this spreadsheet:
- These logs are NOT everyone's fastest possible lap times. I'm only pulling data from the hottest sessions because we're trying to analyze the heat soaking of these cars. I can run 2:13s-2:14s consistently early in the morning but late afternoon they're more like 2:15s-2:16s. Temps are higher, tire grip falls off, etc.
- I'm looking over all the logs, eyeballing where oil temps peak/stay elevated the highest, and grabbing a ~200 second snapshot inside Mega Log Viewer. I'm jotting down the averages of IAT, AAT, coolant, etc.
- Oil temps. Depending on how they're logged will make a difference. I've done my own testing and the cluster/MDI is accurate when up to temp. The PID that gets logged over OBDII/Cobb/etc is "toil" internally. This is a calculated value. "toil_mdi" is calculated until about 120F, then reverts to direct readings at least up to ~270F. This is the value that gets displayed on the cluster. My car has the 3E HSL enabled so I can log toil_mdi. The logic for "toil" gets messed up when you add coolers, more power, etc. This first example Golf R has oil cooler and CSF radiator. It shows 285F oil temps logging "toil" even though the dash never shows above 250 to 255F since adding the coolers. Just wanted to make sure everyone knows comparing oil temps is a bit murky due to this.
- Comparing different vehicles, different drivers, at different tracks is not a fair apples to apples comparison. You will overheat more quickly if you're fast. You might not if the track is lots of long sweeping corners where temperatures can stabilize back down from building on the straights. I'm going to attempt to add some relative lap record times from Spec Miata and Spec E46 as a frame of reference for relative speed.
- Also for comparing various data samples is average pedal position. This brings the track variable a bit out of the equation. The more often you're on throttle harder, the faster you'll go and the less of a break the car gets to cool down in between.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
edit #1: I also renamed this thread because this is going to turn into adding data for a bunch of different stuff. Perhaps once there are multiple samples I'll try to compile general data into a spreadsheet if we can draw any somewhat-clear conclusions.
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Original post:
This is data from a friend's 2018 Golf R. He bought it as already Stage 1 APR tuned. He had problems with oil temps getting to 270F within a few laps on the VIR Full course. Note that coolant temps were never a problem (or at least not to the point of throwing errors or gauge moving beyond the normal area - yes I'm aware it's a dummy gauge). I do not have data logs prior to the radiator install.
CSF promised to offer the solution here:
https://csfrace.com/csf-cooling-releases-the-missing-link-for-the-mqb-platform/
So he bought it with all 3 radiators (main, aux engine and aux DSG radiators).
In a nut shell it seems to be bullshit. He continued to have oil temp problems. He could now get 3 laps in vs 1 or 2 but still doesn't solve the root problem. And again just to be clear: the coolant temps were never the original issue.
I was skeptical to begin with because a 3-pass radiator will increase resistance to coolant flow something like 4x more than stock. Also a lower delta-T across more of the radiator decreases cooling efficiency as well. If you want to read more about radiator and cooling system tech, this article is really good. Radiator design for # of passes is specifically mentioned approximately halfway down FWIW: http://www.billavista.com/tech/Articles/Cooling_Bible/index.html
Anyway since oil temps were still not taken care of - he added the iAbed oil cooler. It wasn't until all of this stuff was installed that I had started screwing around with Simos Tools and I let him borrow it in August of 2022 to log temperatures. It was one of the first hotter temp events he ran, and we found that the IATs were ridiculously high. It was so bad that it was misfiring/cutting power down the back straight.
To recap this is how the car was equipped powertrain-wise:
2018 Golf R w/ DSG and stock IS38 turbo
APR Stage 1 tune
Stock downpipe
APR catback exhaust
APR intake
CSF main + DSG + aux radiators
iAbed oil cooler w/ 19 row Setrab cooler
*MAY have had the Seibon carbon vented hood at this time? I don't recall 100% but I'm fairly certain it was already on for this event.
TEST 1: STOCK IC
So lets look at IATs to start... these are the DELTA temps vs ambient... yes 70F over ambient, which was 78F that day - so 148F IATs:
Now let's look at all the other temps + knock + misfires... holy crap. IMPORTANT TO NOTE: The Mode 22 "Oil Temp" PID is not the actual oil temperature, it is modeled. This does NOT match what shows on the dash. I've done a bunch of testing with logging this (toil), toil_mdi (which mirrors the dash reading), along with the other 5 oil temp parameters logged within the Simos ECU. Best I can tell is that toil_mdi (the dash reading) is modeled initially before up to temp and then switches to a direct readout from the oil pan temp sensor once within the 120-275F temp range. Because this PID here (toil) is modeled within the ECU (it still retains a value even with temp sensor unplugged), it is based off of false logic now that the radiator and other cooling system modifications have been done. So with that in mind here is the data:
Coolant temps still see 224F (which isn't a problem, but isn't what CSF claims), and IATs are absolutely terrible, causing tons of KR and logged misfires.
TEST 2: APR IC
So later last year we installed an APR IC (since it's known to fit with the CSF rad). What were the results of that?
Now IATs are "only" 50-60F above ambient... vs 70F above ambient. Either the APR IC is complete garbage, or the CSF radiator is SIGNIFICANTLY blocking airflow. The oil cooler will contribute as well, but I'd lean toward the radiator since the oil cooler is physically far smaller and air can still flow around it some.
What about all the other temps and KR, etc?
Coolant temps are a max of 230 (just once towards the end of the session). Ambient was actually a tiny bit lower on this weekend. Knock retard is out of control in a few places... the car is literally knocking it's tits off the entire session with some misfires logged as well.
Not sure what the next move will be - potentially swapping the stock radiator back in, potentially selling the car to buy something else which is also likely.
I'm honestly surprised at just how little the APR IC affected things at all. I can't imagine that the CSF radiator would block airflow THAT MUCH but that seems to be the case. Stock radiator needs to go in to see if the APR IC truly heat soaks that badly under track conditions or not.
This is mainly to bring awareness that 90% of the shit people tell you that you "need" to buy are wrong. Or slow (which I think is probably the case with the CSF "test").
If you want to do it right you need DATA. GOOD data.
On a side note, if anyone has a large CSV with this type of on track data (no autocross doesn't count) I'll gladly run it through Megalogviewer for comparison. Testing on a bench is great but real world is what really counts.
If you want to submit me a log, I ABSOLUTELY NEED THE FOLLOWING (prefer degrees F, but can work with deg C if needed):
- Intake air temp (not charge air temp!)
- Ambient air temp
- Oil temp. Let me know if if matches the dash reading or not. If not it's modeled, if so it's "actual" as far as my own testing can tell.
- Engine coolant temp
- TPS % (throttle body, not pedal). This is because the pedal can be mapped differently depending on tune and removes that variable.
- Vehicle speed
- Boost (in psi). If not, then get me PUT (pressure upstream of turbo) and Ambient Air *Pressure* and I can calculate boost, though getting it directly saves me some time. This isn't 100% absolutely necessary, but is helpful to gauge overall stress the car is being put under.
I might make an exception if ONE of the above parameters are missing, but if any two are missing, or if one of those is IAT/AAT/ECT then it probably won't be worth adding to the PDF.
When you PM or post it, please give the following info as well:
User: __________
Vehicle: 20XX VW/Audi __________
Trans: DSG or 6MT
Track: __________ <--- with configuration if multiple (VIR Full, Grand Course, North, etc)
Tune: __________ <--- Also mention fuel used.
Turbo: (IS20/IS38/Other)
Intercooler: MFR + SMIC/FMIC location
Downpipe: Stock/AM <--- list brand if aftermarket
Radiator(s): Stock/CSF/DO88
Other cooling: _________ <--- List ANY other cooling mods that help airflow or may affect it. Wing/splitter/undertray/hood or fender vents/etc.
edit #3: I recently started using Microsoft Power BI which is really handy for creating visuals. This means I can just publish all the data gathered with a small chart and simple "gauges" to show min/average/max readings during the 200 second snapshot of track driving. It also means all the records are easily searchable by using ctrl+F so if it gets extensive, you can check for "EQT" or "APR" or whatever you want. Since this is all part of one "presentation" it also means all the data remains intact since I'm trimming it directly in Power BI, and eventually might get to the point of adding additional charts with stuff like average TPS vs oil or coolant temps to find a trend, etc.
Link here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17OmZvC_tlsmpFnLV45jxSy9Ocyry3ZaX/view?usp=sharing
Example of one of the data sheets:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
edit #2: I'm going to attempt to catalog some reference samples now that I have a few.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BzLSSdXMxIuBQukLpfR0y79UY23l-ljpYSVHgaA8rMc/edit?usp=sharing
A few IMPORTANT things to note when viewing this spreadsheet:
- These logs are NOT everyone's fastest possible lap times. I'm only pulling data from the hottest sessions because we're trying to analyze the heat soaking of these cars. I can run 2:13s-2:14s consistently early in the morning but late afternoon they're more like 2:15s-2:16s. Temps are higher, tire grip falls off, etc.
- I'm looking over all the logs, eyeballing where oil temps peak/stay elevated the highest, and grabbing a ~200 second snapshot inside Mega Log Viewer. I'm jotting down the averages of IAT, AAT, coolant, etc.
- Oil temps. Depending on how they're logged will make a difference. I've done my own testing and the cluster/MDI is accurate when up to temp. The PID that gets logged over OBDII/Cobb/etc is "toil" internally. This is a calculated value. "toil_mdi" is calculated until about 120F, then reverts to direct readings at least up to ~270F. This is the value that gets displayed on the cluster. My car has the 3E HSL enabled so I can log toil_mdi. The logic for "toil" gets messed up when you add coolers, more power, etc. This first example Golf R has oil cooler and CSF radiator. It shows 285F oil temps logging "toil" even though the dash never shows above 250 to 255F since adding the coolers. Just wanted to make sure everyone knows comparing oil temps is a bit murky due to this.
- Comparing different vehicles, different drivers, at different tracks is not a fair apples to apples comparison. You will overheat more quickly if you're fast. You might not if the track is lots of long sweeping corners where temperatures can stabilize back down from building on the straights. I'm going to attempt to add some relative lap record times from Spec Miata and Spec E46 as a frame of reference for relative speed.
- Also for comparing various data samples is average pedal position. This brings the track variable a bit out of the equation. The more often you're on throttle harder, the faster you'll go and the less of a break the car gets to cool down in between.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
edit #1: I also renamed this thread because this is going to turn into adding data for a bunch of different stuff. Perhaps once there are multiple samples I'll try to compile general data into a spreadsheet if we can draw any somewhat-clear conclusions.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Original post:
This is data from a friend's 2018 Golf R. He bought it as already Stage 1 APR tuned. He had problems with oil temps getting to 270F within a few laps on the VIR Full course. Note that coolant temps were never a problem (or at least not to the point of throwing errors or gauge moving beyond the normal area - yes I'm aware it's a dummy gauge). I do not have data logs prior to the radiator install.
CSF promised to offer the solution here:
https://csfrace.com/csf-cooling-releases-the-missing-link-for-the-mqb-platform/
So he bought it with all 3 radiators (main, aux engine and aux DSG radiators).
In a nut shell it seems to be bullshit. He continued to have oil temp problems. He could now get 3 laps in vs 1 or 2 but still doesn't solve the root problem. And again just to be clear: the coolant temps were never the original issue.
I was skeptical to begin with because a 3-pass radiator will increase resistance to coolant flow something like 4x more than stock. Also a lower delta-T across more of the radiator decreases cooling efficiency as well. If you want to read more about radiator and cooling system tech, this article is really good. Radiator design for # of passes is specifically mentioned approximately halfway down FWIW: http://www.billavista.com/tech/Articles/Cooling_Bible/index.html
Anyway since oil temps were still not taken care of - he added the iAbed oil cooler. It wasn't until all of this stuff was installed that I had started screwing around with Simos Tools and I let him borrow it in August of 2022 to log temperatures. It was one of the first hotter temp events he ran, and we found that the IATs were ridiculously high. It was so bad that it was misfiring/cutting power down the back straight.
To recap this is how the car was equipped powertrain-wise:
2018 Golf R w/ DSG and stock IS38 turbo
APR Stage 1 tune
Stock downpipe
APR catback exhaust
APR intake
CSF main + DSG + aux radiators
iAbed oil cooler w/ 19 row Setrab cooler
*MAY have had the Seibon carbon vented hood at this time? I don't recall 100% but I'm fairly certain it was already on for this event.
TEST 1: STOCK IC
So lets look at IATs to start... these are the DELTA temps vs ambient... yes 70F over ambient, which was 78F that day - so 148F IATs:
Now let's look at all the other temps + knock + misfires... holy crap. IMPORTANT TO NOTE: The Mode 22 "Oil Temp" PID is not the actual oil temperature, it is modeled. This does NOT match what shows on the dash. I've done a bunch of testing with logging this (toil), toil_mdi (which mirrors the dash reading), along with the other 5 oil temp parameters logged within the Simos ECU. Best I can tell is that toil_mdi (the dash reading) is modeled initially before up to temp and then switches to a direct readout from the oil pan temp sensor once within the 120-275F temp range. Because this PID here (toil) is modeled within the ECU (it still retains a value even with temp sensor unplugged), it is based off of false logic now that the radiator and other cooling system modifications have been done. So with that in mind here is the data:
Coolant temps still see 224F (which isn't a problem, but isn't what CSF claims), and IATs are absolutely terrible, causing tons of KR and logged misfires.
TEST 2: APR IC
So later last year we installed an APR IC (since it's known to fit with the CSF rad). What were the results of that?
Now IATs are "only" 50-60F above ambient... vs 70F above ambient. Either the APR IC is complete garbage, or the CSF radiator is SIGNIFICANTLY blocking airflow. The oil cooler will contribute as well, but I'd lean toward the radiator since the oil cooler is physically far smaller and air can still flow around it some.
What about all the other temps and KR, etc?
Coolant temps are a max of 230 (just once towards the end of the session). Ambient was actually a tiny bit lower on this weekend. Knock retard is out of control in a few places... the car is literally knocking it's tits off the entire session with some misfires logged as well.
Not sure what the next move will be - potentially swapping the stock radiator back in, potentially selling the car to buy something else which is also likely.
I'm honestly surprised at just how little the APR IC affected things at all. I can't imagine that the CSF radiator would block airflow THAT MUCH but that seems to be the case. Stock radiator needs to go in to see if the APR IC truly heat soaks that badly under track conditions or not.
This is mainly to bring awareness that 90% of the shit people tell you that you "need" to buy are wrong. Or slow (which I think is probably the case with the CSF "test").
If you want to do it right you need DATA. GOOD data.
On a side note, if anyone has a large CSV with this type of on track data (no autocross doesn't count) I'll gladly run it through Megalogviewer for comparison. Testing on a bench is great but real world is what really counts.
Last edited:
I will however, still log a full session all the same when I can.
