Intercooler performance

[jimlloyd40]

I was surprised as well because the Treadstone core (TR8L) on the LT Motorsports FMIC is rated up to 575HP and I'm making no where near that.

They can rate them however they wish it doesn't mean it's true.

 

[morricus]

They can rate them however they wish it doesn't mean it's true.

My mom rated me 200 IQ, but I routinely only see about 80.

 

[BTD37]

I finally pulled the trigger on the AMS intercooler and should be here within the next couple of days. For those interested, I went with AMS since APR and IE V2 are currently backordered and it’s also recommended by the folks over at EQT with proven performance so I felt like I couldn’t go wrong. At first I was a big hesitant since it’s tube and fin vs bar and plate but I got over that pretty quickly especially since the Wagner system is tube and fin and is always highly recommended. Now I have to decide if I want to install it myself or pay around $300-400 to get it installed. Decisions decisions...

 

[Chogokin]

You could probably throw a blanket over an IE, APR, AMS, or Uni, pick one, and get basically the same results. FMIC? Baun. /splitting hairs.

I remember seeing an older post from George saying that after looking at hundreds of data logs a month...regardless of brand (factory location or front mount)...they all work pretty similar. Just get the one in your price point.

 

[shortyb]

I finally pulled the trigger on the AMS intercooler and should be here within the next couple of days. For those interested, I went with AMS since APR and IE V2 are currently backordered and it’s also recommended by the folks over at EQT with proven performance so I felt like I couldn’t go wrong. At first I was a big hesitant since it’s tube and fin vs bar and plate but I got over that pretty quickly especially since the Wagner system is tube and fin and is always highly recommended. Now I have to decide if I want to install it myself or pay around $300-400 to get it installed. Decisions decisions...

Hey, since ya dropped big coin on the cooler, what's another couple hun? I light my cigars with c-notes too .

Seriously, with all the how to guides floating around there is no reason to have it installed if you can spin a fair wrench. If youre trying to save time, then have someone else do it. I personally prefer learning about my car by getting my hands dirty and knowing that the job is done right. YMMV.

 

[daconchslop]

knowing that the job is done right

Facts. I have trust issues.

 

[Jovian]

Hey, since ya dropped big coin on the cooler, what's another couple hun? I light my cigars with c-notes too .

Seriously, with all the how to guides floating around there is no reason to have it installed if you can spin a fair wrench. If youre trying to save time, then have someone else do it. I personally prefer learning about my car by getting my hands dirty and knowing that the job is done right. YMMV.

Some of us dont have places to work on our cars, I do what I can myself and am capable of doing an IC change but my development has strict rules about working on cars. I opted for having EQT do the install of the AMS intercooler.

 

[Desslok]

I went the easy route with a FMIC, but getting that upper grill off was a nightmare. Should have been the easiest part, but it DID NOT want to come out. VW must have used some sort of plastic loctite on those tabs.

Kept trying to get it out and the chrome strip was the only thing coming off. Finally fed a tie down strap through one of the honeycomb holes at the bottom and pulled hard AF. It bent so much it looked for sure like it would break, until finally one corner popped loose.

The second time I removed it, I didn't get painters tape around the area yet and did a test pull to psych myself up. It went flying off like a missile and scratched the bumper.

Now, it practically falls out. I hate that thing.

 

[GTI Jake]

I went the easy route with a FMIC, but getting that upper grill off was a nightmare. Should have been the easiest part, but it DID NOT want to come out. VW must have used some sort of plastic loctite on those tabs.

Kept trying to get it out and the chrome strip was the only thing coming off. Finally fed a tie down strap through one of the honeycomb holes at the bottom and pulled hard AF. It bent so much it looked for sure like it would break, until finally one corner popped loose.

The second time I removed it, I didn't get painters tape around the area yet and did a test pull to psych myself up. It went flying off like a missile and scratched the bumper.

Now, it practically falls out. I hate that thing.

7.5 upper grille is a pain, so I just remove the bumper with it still installed to reduce the risk of damage.

The old mk7 style comes right off though

 

[shortyb]

Some of us dont have places to work on our cars, I do what I can myself and am capable of doing an IC change but my development has strict rules about working on cars. I opted for having EQT do the install of the AMS intercooler.

Well, thats a reason not to DIY I suppose. Should be in good hands with the EQT folks though .

 

[Hollywood0220]

There absolutely is a point where an IC cant keep up and the "step function manner" manner does apply. The stock intercooler is a fine example of this, it works acceptably on the stock tune and recovers enough to make due. Throw a stage 1 tune on and it struggles a bit more to recover when you get constant load or repetitive pulls. Once the intercooler cant reject heat enough to keep up, the ECU will start doing its thing and pull back timing and such to protect the engine. I have absolutely seen this with my stage1 tune and the stock intercooler, repeated pulls just keep compounding the issue of heat soak causing performance degradation.

So saying X intercooler cant keep up with hybrids but can with an IS38 is absolutely plausible. Just depends where the tipping point is and that can vary drastically due to environment, tune, how well the car is running. Its not a black and white thing but you can generalize saying in most situations this IC cant handle a hybrid. Like we have seen many times, certain cars are unicorns and can do something others cant, its very hard to compare cars against one another because of this but there are always outlyers and we most of the time throw that data away when making generalizations.

I appreshiate all the data Jeff creates and really urge him to continue doing so. But this specific article doesn't hold its own due to the information he is using is not complete nor his own. He doesn't know all the variables around the data so digging into it is a moot point. I would love to see Jeff get his hands on a AMS and put it right up with the IEv1 with his own testing.

This is an interesting dialogue here. Speaking specifically of IAT and an IC's ability to lower Charged Air is relative to:
The specific "adieabatic" efficiency of the Turbo, its relative RPM, and sustained level of operation
Ambient Air Temperature & Air Density which are relative to pressure loss (a thermodynamic principle known as "Bernoulli's Principle" purports this as pressure loss)

BUT!!
These would only be relative to a specific turbo & IC loaded under the EXACT same conditions each time to generate a cross reference of Heat Exchange & Cooling.

When comparing ICs, you need to know the specifics of the turbo & conditions in order to obtain a more thorough conclusion.

EXAMPLE:
Turbo A
IS20 / 27psi / 29.0h/g / Amb 85* / 4th Gear pull / 8secs = High Heat
Not very sustained level of operation, Higher PR value, Lower efficiency, Low Density of Air, Higher RPM

Turbo A
IS20 / 20psi / 29.0h/g / Amb 85* / 4th Gear pull / 10secs = Moderate Heat
Longer sustained level of operation, Lower PR Value, Higher Efficiency, Low Density of Air

Same turbo exact same conditions, but with different Boost pressure & PR Value.
Every IC (regardless of its acclaim & ability) will show varying cooling differences under varying conditions.
The bigger turbos that obtain more power in higher RPMs would make many ICs shine
The smaller turbos that obtain more power in the Low & Mid can obtain a simliar shine as long as they remain in a comparable Efficiency range at the same Environmental Conditions.

Recommendation:
Tune for Max Efficiency and you will have sustained / longer term power availability
Tune for Max Power and you will have short lived power ability
Or
Improve the IC and increase the sustainability of the Max Power option?

 

[shortyb]

Recommendation:
Tune for Max Efficiency and you will have sustained / longer term power availability
Tune for Max Power and you will have short lived power ability
Or
Improve the IC and increase the sustainability of the Max Power option?

Its the same answer as the age old question, Ginger or MaryAnn? Both.

It would be easy to answer if someone were designing an intercooler to operate a certain way in the exact same conditions all of the time. Thing is, we don't live in that kind of world so its a blend of science, black magic voodoo, and marketing. Just like with your application of Uncle Jake's (Bernourlli, not our's ) principle, the equation works absolutely in absolute conditions. Start to throw in variables, like how much of the turbo work is done on the compressable gas (air), and his principle gets a flat tire. Thats where the marketing comes in. Show people some numbers (relative or not) and convince them your cooler produces the "better" results and viola, instant sales pitch.

What it takes, IMHO, is a LOT of real world, applicable broad spectrum results, all mixed together, determine what your goals are, then decide which orange you want to pick out of the basket. I don't think I'm wrong here by saying the stock IC on the GTI/R is barely adequate for how it works with the car stock. Play around with air, and the need for a different color orange becomes apparent. Which color? You pick.

 

[Hollywood0220]

Its the same answer as the age old question, Ginger or MaryAnn? Both.

It would be easy to answer if someone were designing an intercooler to operate a certain way in the exact same conditions all of the time. Thing is, we don't live in that kind of world so its a blend of science, black magic voodoo, and marketing. Just like with your application of Uncle Jake's (Bernourlli, not our's ) principle, the equation works absolutely in absolute conditions. Start to throw in variables, like how much of the turbo work is done on the compressable gas (air), and his principle gets a flat tire. Thats where the marketing comes in. Show people some numbers (relative or not) and convince them your cooler produces the "better" results and viola, instant sales pitch.

What it takes, IMHO, is a LOT of real world, applicable broad spectrum results, all mixed together, determine what your goals are, then decide which orange you want to pick out of the basket. I don't think I'm wrong here by saying the stock IC on the GTI/R is barely adequate for how it works with the car stock. Play around with air, and the need for a different color orange becomes apparent. Which color? You pick.

Be aware of the fact that should be obvious:
- Mass produced vehicles are not designed to be “race cars” from factory.

The parameters within my original post cover the areas that affect air temperature and are not hypothesized.
Vague analogies do not disprove facts.
Just ensure that when testing ability - use the same equipment & conditions so as the results are comparative.

 

[shortyb]

 

[Hollywood0220]

It can be concluded that your response is acknowledgement - good to see.