GTI vs Golf R on track

[theclutch]

Hey guys... I'm in the process of upgrading from a Stage 2 Mk6 GTI DSG into either a 7.5 GTI or 7.5 Golf R DSG. Seeing those 11 second Golf R 1/4 mile times is very appealing to me. But, of course, we don't always drive in a straight line. I like the fact that my current GTI feels relatively light. I believe a Golf R will be about 200 lbs heavier. My main gripe about my GTI is that, being an Mk6, I don't have a LSD. So on the 2-4 days/year that I'm on the track, it's not the best. I spin the inside front tires on the street all the time as well. I believe either 7.5 GTI or Golf R has LSDs. Maybe if the on track driving is more enjoyable with an LSD GTI or Golf R, I would do it more often.

My thoughts on the 7.5 GTI is that I would essentially get something very similar to what I have now (up until I modify it) but with an LSD, the Dynamic Chassis Control, great LED dual screens. My worry is that, what am I missing by not going with a Golf R aside from the 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile times? I will likely only mod this to a Stage 1+. With the GTI being lighter and more nimble, I am thinking that it would be faster than the Golf R on the track since acceleration from a standstill is not part of the equation. And possibly more fun in the street since I'm not doing 0 to 60 acceleration all the time.

My thoughts on the Golf R is that the additional 200 lbs may be very noticeable and I may have too much traction which will prevent me from hooning it/squeeling tires, etc. What's great is that this will be a better car for me during the new england winters. But admittedly, I didn't have much trouble with the GTI either. I will also likely only mod this to a Stage 1+. I am thinking that this car would be slower and less tossable on the track such that it would not be as much fun as the GTI on the track or on the street unless I'm doing 0 to 60.

Can anyone share their thoughts? And thanks in advance!

 

[jay745]

For what it's worth, the mk7 LSD isn't a real mechanical LSD, it's an E-LSD which leaves a lot to be desired on a track.

 

[DarkArrow]

Does the Mk6 not have a mechanical LSD available like a wavetrac or peloquin? It might be money better spent to keep the platform you're on if you're only on track 2-4 days a year. There's a good write up a bout the E-LSD jay745 mentioned https://drivetribe.com/p/to-perform...UL3-QV-e6hbuHfTPXA?iid=T4ELTyWGTAyL12I8xXGyGg
I ended up putting a Wavetrac in my R and it really transforms the way it drives, even when driving around town, so you might end up putting in a mechanical LSD anyway.

I think you're right saying the GTI done correctly will be faster around a track. The Clubsport S is faster around the Nurburgring than the R.

 

[theclutch]

Does the Mk6 not have a mechanical LSD available like a wavetrac or peloquin? It might be money better spent to keep the platform you're on if you're only on track 2-4 days a year. There's a good write up a bout the E-LSD jay745 mentioned https://drivetribe.com/p/to-perform...UL3-QV-e6hbuHfTPXA?iid=T4ELTyWGTAyL12I8xXGyGg
I ended up putting a Wavetrac in my R and it really transforms the way it drives, even when driving around town, so you might end up putting in a mechanical LSD anyway.

I think you're right saying the GTI done correctly will be faster around a track. The Clubsport S is faster around the Nurburgring than the R.

The Mk6 does have a wavetrac option. And that could be a cheaper way for me to go. But then I need to add suspension and brakes also. With the newer models, those are already included. Also, I do like the LED screens and new electronics that come with the new cars not to mention the bigger turbo in the GTI and even bigger in the R. I read the drivetribe writeup, but I'm not sure I agree. I quote ""The PP electronic differential works great under IDEAL conditions: A loaded corner, with good pavement. It also works great under proper operating temps. However, the mechanical LSD doesn’t give a shit about pavement quality, operating temps, or constant changes in steering angle, it just wants both wheels spinning at the same speed."" That's stupid. I don't want both wheels spinning at the same speed. I want the outside wheel spinning faster and getting more torque to help turn the car better. Here's a video of what the eLSD does.

For what it's worth, the mk7 LSD isn't a real mechanical LSD, it's an E-LSD which leaves a lot to be desired on a track.

Why do you say it doesn't work as well on the track? The eLSD appears superior to any mechanical LSD since it takes steering, yaw, rpm, speed, etc. into consideration. From the video above explaining it, they gained 8.5 seconds on the Nurburgring. Wow... that seems impressive.

Thanks in advance!

 

[theclutch]

I ended up putting a Wavetrac in my R and it really transforms the way it drives, even when driving around town, so you might end up putting in a mechanical LSD anyway.

On your R, btw, do you feel a drastic difference between the DCC settings? I.e. - softest suspension settings vs the hardest suspension settings and everything in between? On my AMG, the difference is slight. On the Audi S5, you'd have to purposefully search for the difference.

 

[DarkArrow]

On your R, btw, do you feel a drastic difference between the DCC settings? I.e. - softest suspension settings vs the hardest suspension settings and everything in between? On my AMG, the difference is slight. On the Audi S5, you'd have to purposefully search for the difference.

I would agree with your conclusions on DCC for other cars. I've had multiple passengers who I tested to see if they would notice any difference, none could feel a difference even when told what they should be trying to feel and when I switched modes. There are many who disagree with me and will say there are significant differences between the modes, but my opinion of that is they're hunting for justification for the additional $$ they spent. The ride quality change from switching from the factory 19s to 18s made 100x bigger difference than DCC ever could do. I would be much happier with a non-DCC car (unavailable for the '18 R) and not worry about it when modifying suspension since many DCC cancellers have shown to have issues.

 

[theclutch]

For what it's worth, the mk7 LSD isn't a real mechanical LSD, it's an E-LSD which leaves a lot to be desired on a track.

Go to around 4:20 where he says you can adjust the eLSD. That's awesome!

 

[jay745]

@theclutch It's way better than a normal open diff, but it just doesn't behave like a mechanical diff. I have a mechanical diff (wavetrac) in my mk6 track car, and have driven a lot of other mk7's with the e diff. Mechanical is just much more responsive and predictable. All of that electric trickery going on, the car tries to act differently based on what type of corner you're on, it's not linear at all. Hard to explain I guess, go drive one and you'll see.


And 8 seconds on the ring isnt much considering it's a ~8 minute lap. Most US tracks are anywhere from 1:30-3:00 minute laps which shaving 8 seconds would be more impressive

 

[theclutch]

@theclutch It's way better than a normal open diff, but it just doesn't behave like a mechanical diff. I have a mechanical diff (wavetrac) in my mk6 track car, and have driven a lot of other mk7's with the e diff. Mechanical is just much more responsive and predictable. All of that electric trickery going on, the car tries to act differently based on what type of corner you're on, it's not linear at all. Hard to explain I guess, go drive one and you'll see.


And 8 seconds on the ring isnt much considering it's a ~8 minute lap. Most US tracks are anywhere from 1:30-3:00 minute laps which shaving 8 seconds would be more impressive

Wow!!! Can I come over and drive your cars? So that certainly puts things into perspective. Thanks for that! On that note, I'm sure you've driven the Golf R. So your thoughts on Golf R vs the GTI in terms of handling? Obviously, the Golf R has more power. Thanks in advance!

 

[jay745]

Wow!!! Can I come over and drive your cars? So that certainly puts things into perspective. Thanks for that! On that note, I'm sure you've driven the Golf R. So your thoughts on Golf R vs the GTI in terms of handling? Obviously, the Golf R has more power. Thanks in advance!

Come on out to the midwest!

Stock for stock they both don't handle all that great, both understeer quite a lot without some suspension mods. The R is a little more planted in turns once the haldex kicks in but that's about it. I personally prefer gti's over R's.

 

[glitronic]

*edit* I see the point I'm addressing below has made already, but it's the term "eLSD" that's being used in this thread to describe the GTI PP/VAQ diff that was confusing to me. I think it's more common to use the term "eLSD" to describe what most cars like the Focus ST do, where there is no mechanical diff at all, it's just using braking to approximate what an LSD does. I wouldn't call the GTI PP/VAQ diff an "eLSD".

The MK7 GTI Performance Pack VAQ diff *is* mechanical. It's just electronically controlled and hydraulically actuated vs something like a Quaife or Wavetrac that is just mechanical. The result is that the VAQ diff can function partially and more seamlessly based on all the electronic input it's considering; you don't even notice it "activating" but you can feel it working. I've ridden in a MK7 GTI without the VAQ diff at an autocross back to back after my runs in a MK7 GTI with the VAQ diff and the difference was night and day - crazy wheelspin every time the car isn't in a straight line without the VAQ diff. (I've also built various Hondas for autocross/track and have had a couple OEM Integra Type R helical LSD transmissions as well as a Wavetrac, so I know what they feel like on those cars both with stock power and way more power.)
There are plenty of threads comparing the VAQ diff to an aftermarket LSD, and to a large part it comes down to pros and cons. An aftermarket LSD may perform better for a more hardcore track-focused car is the consensus I've seen.

The Golf R has no front LSD, and this is a big weakness for non-straight line driving vs the GTI (with PP/VAQ diff). There are plenty of videos on YouTube comparing GTI vs Golf R performance on track; you might want to look at the GTI Clubsport or Seat Leon Cupra (very similar to the GTI Clubsport) vs Golf R vids from Europe to compare what a tuned US MK7 GTI would come out to. In summary, the Golf R rockets out of corners very well, but with around the same power, the lighter GTI/Cupra ends up being pretty comparable if not faster. Of course, I'm sure a Golf R with a tune and/or aftermarket front diff could easily overcome the weight disadvantage vs a tuned GTI on track.

 

[theclutch]

...The Golf R has no front LSD, and this is a big weakness for non-straight line driving vs the GTI (with PP/VAQ diff). ....

I ended up putting a Wavetrac in my R and it really transforms the way it drives, even when driving around town, so you might end up putting in a mechanical LSD anyway.

So your Golf R doesn't come with the eLSD like the GTI does? The Golf R is no longer in the VW website so I couldn't go there and check... They must have just taken it down in the past few days since I was just there last week.

 

[Cliff]

Fwiw, here is a video of me chasing a fellow instructor up at Thunderhill East last January. He was driving a project car for the shop we both use. It's a GTI with an IS38 and running a downpipe, so he had a bit of a power advantage on my APR stage 1 high torque car. We are both on Ohlins, both have Stoptech 4-pot brakes, a Wavetrac, and a thicker rear sway, so very similarly modded cars. I was on 255/35R18 Dunlop ZIII tires while he was running 245/40R18 Hankook R-S4s. His car has a 200 pound weight advantage and a 40+hp power advantage, but he was consistently spinning his wheels if he wasn't very careful with the throttle. Also, that's his exhaust you hear in the video. It's the droniest.

To see my complete list of mods you can click the build thread link in my signature - they're detailed in the first post.

 

[hans611]

So your Golf R doesn't come with the eLSD like the GTI does? The Golf R is no longer in the VW website so I couldn't go there and check... They must have just taken it down in the past few days since I was just there last week.

The Golf R transmission has a transfer case in place of the VAQ eLSD that connects to a rear Haldex clutch via a driveshaft

That Haldex clutch is electronically actuated. Fully engaged, the power split is technically 50/50

The way it decides when it engages and when its just in FWD mode is by detecting the different front/rear wheel speeds

If the fronts are spinning faster, it engages the haldex..... the haldex then sends power to a rear open diff and the two rear wheels...

The front/rear wheels behave like an open diff, however you still have all the electronic aids:

EDL: Electronic Differntial lock, can apply brake pressure to stop (inner) spinning tire up to 35mph (Uses ABS wheel speed sensros)

XDS: Brakes inner wheels for better cornering (Uses corner loading sensors)

Then you have the traditional ESC (stability control) that can brake 1-3 wheels independently to adjust for yaw angle (corrects under or oversteer)

And ofc ASR (Traction control) which cuts engine power to help induce traction

Messing around with "ESC Sport" is fun because you get to see all these systems working.. it just disables traction control and lets the rest allow more fun....

The eLSD on the GTIs and the Haldex is very similar in construction, the eLSD is derived from the Haldex...

They both use clutch packs to transfer power.. the Golf R from the transfer case to the rear open diff and wheels

The GTI uses the haldex clutches to lock the front wheels

 

[Gvazquez]

Does anyone here have data of using XDS on track? Or is it better to keep it all the way off