front sway bars

[tigeo]

I'd like to try zero toe first and see how that is. I am on a high-speed track (VIR) with speeds that can touch 140 in my wagon and it's dead stable at that speed so want to maintain that.

 

[xXDavidCXx]

Toe out is more for slower speeds. If you don’t need the cornering agility like at Autocross, then zero toe is more appropriate.

 

[xXDavidCXx]

Indeed, how does toe-out affect tire wear and highway tracking/stability?

I find that the rear toe has nothing to do with highway tracking, only front toe-out causes this issue.

 

[mrmatto]

I find that the rear toe has nothing to do with highway tracking, only front toe-out causes this issue.

Interesting. In our RAV4, which has the rear toe arms epoxied due to a recall (thanks Toyota, brilliant), it’s stuck with very slight toe-out in the rear and it’s such a chore to drive in the highway as it never wants to stay straight. The slightest steering wheel input has exaggerated results. But not all cars are that sensitive to toe.

 

[xXDavidCXx]

Interesting. In our RAV4, which has the rear toe arms epoxied due to a recall (thanks Toyota, brilliant), it’s stuck with very slight toe-out in the rear and it’s such a chore to drive in the highway as it never wants to stay straight. The slightest steering wheel input has exaggerated results. But not all cars are that sensitive to toe.

It probably depends on how much.

I run 1/8 inch total toe-out (-0.15 deg per side)

 

[tigeo]

Here are mine...I get confused on the total vs. per side thing and unfortunately I don't have my sheet to see...maybe I'll have to hit the alignment shop and get a print out.

These are toe-in.

F. toe 0.16
R. toe 0.15

The rest of it.

F. camber -2.0
F. caster 7.9
R. camber -1.6

 

[xXDavidCXx]

Here are mine...I get confused on the total vs. per side thing and unfortunately I don't have my sheet to see...maybe I'll have to hit the alignment shop and get a print out.

These are toe-in.

F. toe 0.16
R. toe 0.15

The rest of it.

F. camber -2.0
F. caster 7.9
R. camber -1.6

Pretty typical (factory) toe settings

Sucks for autocrossing.

 

[mrmatto]

@xXDavidCXx So does this come down to roll couple distribution and what’s ideal? On the discussion of balance, your post here (https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/inde...ay-bars-or-both-and-more.384453/#post-7639154) suggests a RSB with stock suspension results in a pretty even roll couple distribution and reduced understeer. Adding a FSB obviously changes the RCD back towards the front. So what’s the relationship here? I know it’s complex…

Seems like: (?)

1. RSB alone reduces understeer by reducing rear roll and changing RCD, but at the expense of traction.
2. FSB reduces understeer by reducing roll and camber loss.
3. Where does RCD factor in with all of this?

 

[xXDavidCXx]

@xXDavidCXx So does this come down to roll couple distribution and what’s ideal? On the discussion of balance, your post here (https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/inde...ay-bars-or-both-and-more.384453/#post-7639154) suggests a RSB with stock suspension results in a pretty even roll couple distribution and reduced understeer. Adding a FSB obviously changes the RCD back towards the front. So what’s the relationship here? I know it’s complex…

Seems like: (?)

1. RSB alone reduces understeer by reducing rear roll and changing RCD, but at the expense of traction.
2. FSB reduces understeer by reducing roll and camber loss.
3. Where does RCD factor in with all of this?

1. RSB alone moves the roll couple distribution rearward, decreasing understeer/increasing oversteer (generally speaking)
2. FSB alone moves the roll couple distribution forward, reduces camber loss due to decreased body roll, increasing understeer/decreasing oversteer (generally speaking)
3. I've been successful with a 62-63% Front RCD, which is what you get with my setup vs stock (69%) vs rear bar only (034 soft 54% or hard 51%), vs front bar only (Hotchkis soft 79% hard 81%).

#1 works, but I don't think it's the best choice because of #2, which works counter to how RCD generally works because of the suspension design.

https://nasaspeed.news/columns/driv...tanding-weight-transfer-and-racecar-dynamics/

 

[mrmatto]

So much awesome info in this thread

 

[GoatAutomotive]

Someone just ordered a 28 mm H&R front sway bar today on sale/clearance…

Can’t afford coilovers, but I can still reduce body roll and preserve camber!

You can count on me to do a full report afterwards. I need the front bar installed before the next track event on April 12 at HHR.

It should pair beautifully with the current H&R OE sport springs I’m running, and the 25 mm RSB.

I blame this forum…

 

[scrllock]

I've been following along. My Alltrack is my daily, and my Autocross weapon.

2017 Alltrack S with IS20, APR Stage 3 91 octane/DSG tunes, CTS TIP, Mishimoto intercooler, on Silvers Neomax coilovers with 10k/14k Swift springs (re-valved by Randy O’Brien), 034 ball joints and front sway bar end links, Eurocode front chassis brace, H&R 25mm rear sway bar w/Moog end links, 034 Rear Subframe Mount Inserts. Ferodo DS2500 front pads. -3.7 front/-2.2 rear camber, zero toe. Apex VS-5RS 17x9/ET42, with 255/40-17 Yokohama A052.

View attachment 276181

View attachment 276182

The Alltrack currently handles amazing. I have a matching H&R 27mm front sway bar on order, and will run it on soft due to the stiff springs I'm using.

I'll report back after installation and an Autocross event.

Seen you post this in a few spots. Who's Randy O'Brien?

 

[GoatAutomotive]

I've been following along. My Alltrack is my daily, and my Autocross weapon.

2017 Alltrack S with IS20, APR Stage 3 91 octane/DSG tunes, CTS TIP, Mishimoto intercooler, on Silvers Neomax coilovers with 10k/14k Swift springs (re-valved by Randy O’Brien), 034 ball joints and front sway bar end links, Eurocode front chassis brace, H&R 25mm rear sway bar w/Moog end links, 034 Rear Subframe Mount Inserts. Ferodo DS2500 front pads. -3.7 front/-2.2 rear camber, zero toe. Apex VS-5RS 17x9/ET42, with 255/40-17 Yokohama A052.

View attachment 276181

View attachment 276182

The Alltrack currently handles amazing. I have a matching H&R 27mm front sway bar on order, and will run it on soft due to the stiff springs I'm using.

I'll report back after installation and an Autocross event.

Rick, that is a beautiful GSW doing some work! Excellent list of upgrades, as well .

Do you run those spring rates full-time on the street?

I imagine they would be quite punishing on normal public roads, but I also know from experience that Swift is a top shelf product with excellent dynamics.

On a related note, what feedback can you give us regarding the Yokohama A052 tires you run?

I have always been a fan of the 255/40 squared fitment on 17x9s for cars that don’t need a super tall tire.

 

[00Zero]

I have a H&R 26mm front sway that i bought ages ago to complement my Eibach RSB (24.5mm ish) and haven't gotten around to installing on my other wise stock GSW suspension.

I love the infallibility of the front end, back road bumps just get soaked up and maintain traction, i know the larger bar will make the axel more "solid / less independent" and some say that it tosses you back and forth a lot but I suspect this is also due to a lack of bump travel on these usually poorly lowered cars, thoughts?

My intension is with this FSB install ill add Power flex camber brushing and superpro caster brushings should give a bit more then -.5deg camber without caster loss.

A later date add Eurosport front camber mount up front and a stiffer rear spring to get some flat ride that would eventually put the frc a bit better than neutral.

 

[xXDavidCXx]

I would not size down for "stretch", if anything wider wheel if it's allowed.

No serious autocrosser runs narrower tires than they are allowed if there are no other constraints.