Braille Battery GU1R 12v Lithium Ion Retrofit

[dunkelweizen]

Resurrecting this thread (thx Diggs) with some cheaper alternatives:

I know there's a real chance of questionable specs and/or quality of these chinese batteries, but for half the price with the same 2years warranty as the Braille, I figured I can give it a shot and maybe other people feel the same.

I'm not 100% sure which spec/model I should be getting, since the Braille G30 is 192Wh/947CCA/15AH, the 3 I listed would be 256WH/750CCA/20Ah, 384Wh/850CCA/22Ah or 360Wh/720CCA/20(?)Ah

(the slightly lower CCA ratings don't really concern me, since they're all overkill for a gas 2L/4cyl)

I know with older alternators (with "dumb" regulators) you could overheat them or burn the diodes if you massively oversize the battery, but in our cars where we have charging settings options specifically for Li-ion in VCDS perhaps that's not a concern anymore..?

Knowledgeable advice would be appreciated.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable, but I can give you my experience so far with lighter than stock AGM battery (similar idea to the LiFeO4 ones you linked - yes, I know they are totally different chemistry). I was all set originally on getting a 15 lb, 20 Ah AGM battery others have mentioned (cuz race car? haha). Then I saw ppl writing that they regularly trickle charge their battery and carry booster packs so they don't get stranded. I'm not driving a race car no matter how much I like to imagine it in my head lol and don't even track anymore, so I decided it was pretty stupid for my DD use to compromise so much on capacity to shave those 20 sprung pounds vs stock.

I ended up getting the Braille B3121 AGM which is 21 lb, 31 Ah about 7 months ago. Compared to the 15lb/20Ah AGMs that most talked about running, I gain 11 Ah at the cost of ~5 lb (which still nets me about 15 lb savings vs stock 60 Ah battery).

I don't trickle charge my battery. The car was parked for 2 full weeks while I was away in November and it fired up totally fine right away. Winter has not been very cold here so far with some slightly below freezing days (high 20s F) and starts up no issue at all, even doing about 6 or 7 starts within an hour of very short trips in the snow. I also regularly have the stereo going with the engine not running and again, starts no problem in the cold.

The usable energy of a Li-ion battery is about double of the equivalent AGM with LiFeO4 a bit less at around 1.5x of AGM, so a 20Ah LiFeO4 = ~30+Ah AGM. In that case, any of the LiFeO4 ones you listed should give you the great weight savings and should not compromise DD use of the car (assuming that's what you use your car for). The only thing I'm not so certain about is whether our charging system can properly handle the LiFeO4 (not listed in Mk7 Gateway battery adaptation) as I don't know if they have different charging requirements compared to Li-ion (listed in Mk7 Gateway battery adaptation). The motorcycle guys seem to all use it no problem (cranks better than regular batteries from what I've read), but we have more parasitic drain than a bike also... If the charge rate and current for LiFeO4 is similar to Li-ion, then we're golden. Maybe someone actually knowledgeable can chime in...

I paid $400 CAD ($300 USD) shipped for my Braille B3121 AGM. When this battery goes, I will definitely look to get the LiFeO4 ones you linked above instead as they are cheaper, lighter, give more capacity and last longer than the Braille AGM I bought (also less flammable than Li-ion ones). And even if you hadn't linked those, I would have gone with a similar capacity Chinese made AGM at half the price next time as I don' t feel the Braille one is so much better that it justifies their price premium. If you do end up getting a LiFeO4 battery, would be very interested to hear how it goes for you. Sorry to semi-jack your post...

Thanks for finding those much more palatable $$-wise LiFeO4 batteries Cheers.

 

[WhyNotZoidberg?]

I'm not particularly knowledgeable, but I can give you my experience so far with lighter than stock AGM battery (similar idea to the LiFeO4 ones you linked - yes, I know they are totally different chemistry). I was all set originally on getting a 15 lb, 20 Ah AGM battery others have mentioned (cuz race car? haha). Then I saw ppl writing that they regularly trickle charge their battery and carry booster packs so they don't get stranded. I'm not driving a race car no matter how much I like to imagine it in my head lol and don't even track anymore, so I decided it was pretty stupid for my DD use to compromise so much on capacity to shave those 20 sprung pounds vs stock.

I ended up getting the Braille B3121 AGM which is 21 lb, 31 Ah about 7 months ago. Compared to the 15lb/20Ah AGMs that most talked about running, I gain 11 Ah at the cost of ~5 lb (which still nets me about 15 lb savings vs stock 60 Ah battery).

I don't trickle charge my battery. The car was parked for 2 full weeks while I was away in November and it fired up totally fine right away. Winter has not been very cold here so far with some slightly below freezing days (high 20s F) and starts up no issue at all, even doing about 6 or 7 starts within an hour of very short trips in the snow. I also regularly have the stereo going with the engine not running and again, starts no problem in the cold.

The usable energy of a Li-ion battery is about double of the equivalent AGM with LiFeO4 a bit less at around 1.5x of AGM, so a 20Ah LiFeO4 = ~30+Ah AGM. In that case, any of the LiFeO4 ones you listed should give you the great weight savings and should not compromise DD use of the car (assuming that's what you use your car for). The only thing I'm not so certain about is whether our charging system can properly handle the LiFeO4 (not listed in Mk7 Gateway battery adaptation) as I don't know if they have different charging requirements compared to Li-ion (listed in Mk7 Gateway battery adaptation). The motorcycle guys seem to all use it no problem (cranks better than regular batteries from what I've read), but we have more parasitic drain than a bike also... If the charge rate and current for LiFeO4 is similar to Li-ion, then we're golden. Maybe someone actually knowledgeable can chime in...

I paid $400 CAD ($300 USD) shipped for my Braille B3121 AGM. When this battery goes, I will definitely look to get the LiFeO4 ones you linked above instead as they are cheaper, lighter, give more capacity and last longer than the Braille AGM I bought (also less flammable than Li-ion ones). And even if you hadn't linked those, I would have gone with a similar capacity Chinese made AGM at half the price next time as I don' t feel the Braille one is so much better that it justifies their price premium. If you do end up getting a LiFeO4 battery, would be very interested to hear how it goes for you. Sorry to semi-jack your post...

Thanks for finding those much more palatable $$-wise LiFeO4 batteries Cheers.

I've had a LiFePO battery in my bike (Ninja zx-6r) for years; my bike is parked outside (just like my cars - apartment life) from early March until December. It's my daily all summer long, but then it sometimes sits for even a month when it gets cold and/or rainy, and never had an issue starting it.

When I put that battery in about 5 years ago, I bought the cheapest one I could find (was something like $60) without checking any specs on it, just tossed it in and called it a day. Never put a charger on it, even when taking the bike out of winter storage every spring, turn the key and it just starts up, with the old gas from December in the tank



I guess my original post wasn't very clear, but I'm not worried about not having enough battery with those 20/22Ah batteries from Amazon, since for about $350 you could get the 40Ah variants (almost 3 times the power of a Braille G30 for just 60% of the price):

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0881HT5DW/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza?th=1

https://www.amazon.com/Phosphate-Re...d48fee&pd_rd_wg=dsCOG&pd_rd_i=B08DFXVN88&th=1

Even going up to a 60Ah that's about $450, so the G30 at $600 for 15Ah just doesn't seem to me like a great value nowadays IMHO.


My concern was about having "too much battery" and either messing up the charging/alternator on the GTI by forcing it to always go full-power, or messing up the battery by not having enough alternator be able to ever fully charge it

Since there are options in VCDS for Li batteries, I assume VW "knows" the correct charging mode for Li batteries (14.6V vs 13.8V for lead-acid, and the ConstantCurrent/ConstantVoltage LiFePO charging algorithm), but I don't know what the GTI's Li battery upper charging limits are to not go past them.

I hope someone knows more about this to help out.


I'm sure I'll get one of those LiFePO batterries eventually and I will post the outcome, although my GTI has been out of daily duty for a while now and it's on a slow descent into 'racekar' aka track duty and occasional weekend fun, so my experience might not be relevant to many..

 

[GTIfan99]

Well done.

Another good alternative.


Lol, very true. But 5 gallons of fuel at Daytona Rolex 24 hour course is good for approximately 4 more laps during a 30 minute session. I averaged 3 MPG during my sessions there.

I'm in Jacksonville and have done Daytona a couple times. Let me know next time you're going, maybe we can meet up. Not a lot of people tracking VW's in this area.

 

[GTIfan99]

I've had a LiFePO battery in my bike (Ninja zx-6r) for years; my bike is parked outside (just like my cars - apartment life) from early March until December. It's my daily all summer long, but then it sometimes sits for even a month when it gets cold and/or rainy, and never had an issue starting it.

When I put that battery in about 5 years ago, I bought the cheapest one I could find (was something like $60) without checking any specs on it, just tossed it in and called it a day. Never put a charger on it, even when taking the bike out of winter storage every spring, turn the key and it just starts up, with the old gas from December in the tank



I guess my original post wasn't very clear, but I'm not worried about not having enough battery with those 20/22Ah batteries from Amazon, since for about $350 you could get the 40Ah variants (almost 3 times the power of a Braille G30 for just 60% of the price):

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0881HT5DW/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza?th=1

https://www.amazon.com/Phosphate-Re...d48fee&pd_rd_wg=dsCOG&pd_rd_i=B08DFXVN88&th=1

Even going up to a 60Ah that's about $450, so the G30 at $600 for 15Ah just doesn't seem to me like a great value nowadays IMHO.


My concern was about having "too much battery" and either messing up the charging/alternator on the GTI by forcing it to always go full-power, or messing up the battery by not having enough alternator be able to ever fully charge it

Since there are options in VCDS for Li batteries, I assume VW "knows" the correct charging mode for Li batteries (14.6V vs 13.8V for lead-acid, and the ConstantCurrent/ConstantVoltage LiFePO charging algorithm), but I don't know what the GTI's Li battery upper charging limits are to not go past them.

I hope someone knows more about this to help out.


I'm sure I'll get one of those LiFePO batterries eventually and I will post the outcome, although my GTI has been out of daily duty for a while now and it's on a slow descent into 'racekar' aka track duty and occasional weekend fun, so my experience might not be relevant to many..

If you have keyless ignition in your GTI, that might not work out so well in the case of using a LiFePO battery. Mine lasted a week of daily driving and parking in garage at night. One night I locked the car in the garage, battery deader than a door nail next morning.

Charger had a recover mode and it charged it, read 13.2V with voltmeter, but wouldn't turn car over.

I used an Antigravity ATX-20 20 cell 680 CCA battery.

 

[dunkelweizen]

My concern was about having "too much battery" and either messing up the charging/alternator on the GTI by forcing it to always go full-power, or messing up the battery by not having enough alternator be able to ever fully charge it

Since there are options in VCDS for Li batteries, I assume VW "knows" the correct charging mode for Li batteries (14.6V vs 13.8V for lead-acid, and the ConstantCurrent/ConstantVoltage LiFePO charging algorithm), but I don't know what the GTI's Li battery upper charging limits are to not go past them.

I hope someone knows more about this to help out.


I'm sure I'll get one of those LiFePO batterries eventually and I will post the outcome, although my GTI has been out of daily duty for a while now and it's on a slow descent into 'racekar' aka track duty and occasional weekend fun, so my experience might not be relevant to many..

I don't think there will be issues with too much capacity for the ones you linked. Even the 40 Ah LiFeO4 one is only equivalent to a 60 Ah AGM/EFB which is stock capacity. There are people that are "upgrading" their EFB batteriy to a larger 70Ah for more capacity - and it would appear that the battery tray was designed to accommodate the larger size. And at the end of the day, even if battery cap was much bigger than that, it just means it will take longer to charge up to full. A nice long highway drive after install will get you there. And once fully charged, it shouldn't be any different than other batteries on the charging system - unless the drain rate is too fast...

If anything, the concern as @GTIfan99 noted is that LiFeO4 doesn't hold charge as well as AGM/EFB and Li-ion ones, so more capacity is better I would think. When I'm ready to replace my expensive ass Braille AGM, I will most likely give LiFeO4 a try and probably get one as big as I can physically fit on battery tray. And yeah, if you guys beat me to getting one, then for sure would love to hear how it works out. Cheers.