AtlantaDad
Drag Race Newbie
- Location
- Cumming, GA
Did you know you're famous? https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...ense-plates/page129&p=113343913#post113343913
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
7
Ask Me Anything: Lug Nut, Bolts and Wheel Locks!
- Thread starter flipflp
- Start date
Hah! I didn't but I know exactly where that is on my commute home. Every once in a while I'll look in my rear view mirror and see someone laughing or taking a picture of the plate, it makes me happy someone else gets a laugh out of it.
Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk
teemmy
Ready to race!
- Location
- bay area, CA
What stud conversion kit would you recommend? also, what lug nuts to you recommend as well? Do you ever buy extra lugs just in case?
What lock nuts do you recommend? Thanks!
What lock nuts do you recommend? Thanks!
Sorry for the late reply!
I've had a few stud conversions, and what I would recommend is sort of going to be based on what wheels you have.
If you have factory VW/Audi wheels, or wheels that use the OEM bolts like Neuspeed, you can go with any stud and R13 ball seat lug nut combo out there. My favorites are Rennline who has a very nice bullet nose stud in a few lengths, depending on your needs for wheel spacer thickness, etc. and a new one that looks incredible but is probably fairly expensive all things considered from Raceseng and they are titanium.
I'm currently using the ECS studs, not sure who manufacturers them for ECS but they've been good to me so far. Not quite the straightest studs I've ever used, and the 80mm versions can have a little bend that can make mounting spacers and wheels a little weird.
Lug nuts in an R13 ball seat are pretty uncommon, so I would get them from the wheel stud vendor if possible. Rennline, ECS, 034, a few other vendors sell them but they aren't used much outside of stud conversions, so don't expect an auto parts or wheel and tire shop to have them. Spares are not a bad idea. Also, if you have a factory spare wheel you want to mount properly with wheel studs in general you need these lug nuts. The factory spare is designed to use the OEM ball seat lug bolts.
If you have aftermarket wheels with conical seats where you wouldn't use the OEM bolts, you have some more options for lugs but you should be aware of lug/socket clearances and lug nut/socket depth for some lug styles. If your studs are excessively long, they can bottom out inside of a closed end style lug nut, or even inside of a socket for a lug nut/lock depending on the brand.
Here's a post I made previously about my past/current setups:
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showpost.php?p=739930&postcount=25
There was a discussion in another thread that I wanted to make a post about here, specifically about the function of lug nuts/bolts in relation to wheel centering.
The TL;DR: The comment was that wheels don't need to be hub centric to be centered, and that the correct fastener will center the wheel correctly. For most people, this is not good advice.
It should always be your goal to have a wheel centered by the hub.
That doesn’t mean you can’t adequately center a wheel with only lug bolts/nuts. This can be done through multi-stage torqueing in a star pattern with a reasonable degree of success, BUT (here’s the caveat you can't ignore) that isn’t consistent or repeatable for everyone and leaves unknown variables. Most shops aren’t going to do this, or they won’t do it properly the first time on all 4 wheels. Why leave that to chance? Just get hub rings.
If you are the only person that ever touches your car, and you always install wheels with a multi-stage star pattern method and can reinstall/retorque if there are vibrations, more power to you. That doesn’t mean your methods are appropriate for everyone else.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, but if we’re giving advice to a group with various levels of abilities, knowledge, expertise, etc. I would always give safe, repeatable advice. That is what is most helpful. I don't advise "sending it" when it comes to wheels and tires.
A bit more info, if the TL;DR wasn't enough for you.
The Purpose of Wheel Fasteners:
Lug bolts and lug nuts have one primary function: To clamp the wheel to the brake rotor/hub face and retain torque through tension at the threads and fastener seat until that torque is manually broken. The industry test for this is SAE J2316. There is a torque spec by application and the tension created by the fastener is measured using a calibrated rig and specific procedure.
There are no industry tests related to wheel balance, though it's critical for drivability and NVH that there are no vibrations caused by the wheel and tire assembly. What is standard in the industry is for a wheel bore and hub bore to match, referred to as "hub centered" or "hub centric" wheel. As long as the hub and wheel are manufactured correctly, this method works as intended to center the wheel regardless of fastener type or installation method.
This removes gravity and the fastener style from the equation and centers the wheel at the very smallest radius from the center of the hub/axle. This is by design, and not just for convenience.
In the aftermarket, depending on the wheel manufacturer hub bore sizes on wheels can vary. Most brands will offer a generic center bore across many different wheel styles and sizes, and then recommend a hub centric ring to adapt down this bore to match the intended vehicle. This mimics a factory hub centric wheel.
Why are there different lug seat styles?
The reasons for a car manufacturer or wheel manufacturer to spec a certain seat style are numerous. There was a lot of testing done to lead them to their choice, and I won't speak for them and their reasons or goals. In the aftermarket, it’s most common to spec a conical seat to a wheel, and there are aftermarket lug styles specific to most common aftermarket wheel specs.
To give a specific contrasting example, Neuspeed makes aftermarket wheels designed to use factory lug bolts for our applications and others. They’ve built their wheels with that fastener as an example in design and testing, and they know these bolts are well made and meet OEM standards. That’s convenient for everyone, and removes MANY variables like bolt lengths, different ball seat radius specs, needing to source bolts or ensuring the wheels are installed properly by the installer or end user. Factory bolts, factory torque specs, couldn’t be simpler.
The TL;DR: The comment was that wheels don't need to be hub centric to be centered, and that the correct fastener will center the wheel correctly. For most people, this is not good advice.
It should always be your goal to have a wheel centered by the hub.
That doesn’t mean you can’t adequately center a wheel with only lug bolts/nuts. This can be done through multi-stage torqueing in a star pattern with a reasonable degree of success, BUT (here’s the caveat you can't ignore) that isn’t consistent or repeatable for everyone and leaves unknown variables. Most shops aren’t going to do this, or they won’t do it properly the first time on all 4 wheels. Why leave that to chance? Just get hub rings.
If you are the only person that ever touches your car, and you always install wheels with a multi-stage star pattern method and can reinstall/retorque if there are vibrations, more power to you. That doesn’t mean your methods are appropriate for everyone else.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat, but if we’re giving advice to a group with various levels of abilities, knowledge, expertise, etc. I would always give safe, repeatable advice. That is what is most helpful. I don't advise "sending it" when it comes to wheels and tires.
A bit more info, if the TL;DR wasn't enough for you.
The Purpose of Wheel Fasteners:
Lug bolts and lug nuts have one primary function: To clamp the wheel to the brake rotor/hub face and retain torque through tension at the threads and fastener seat until that torque is manually broken. The industry test for this is SAE J2316. There is a torque spec by application and the tension created by the fastener is measured using a calibrated rig and specific procedure.
There are no industry tests related to wheel balance, though it's critical for drivability and NVH that there are no vibrations caused by the wheel and tire assembly. What is standard in the industry is for a wheel bore and hub bore to match, referred to as "hub centered" or "hub centric" wheel. As long as the hub and wheel are manufactured correctly, this method works as intended to center the wheel regardless of fastener type or installation method.
This removes gravity and the fastener style from the equation and centers the wheel at the very smallest radius from the center of the hub/axle. This is by design, and not just for convenience.
In the aftermarket, depending on the wheel manufacturer hub bore sizes on wheels can vary. Most brands will offer a generic center bore across many different wheel styles and sizes, and then recommend a hub centric ring to adapt down this bore to match the intended vehicle. This mimics a factory hub centric wheel.
Why are there different lug seat styles?
The reasons for a car manufacturer or wheel manufacturer to spec a certain seat style are numerous. There was a lot of testing done to lead them to their choice, and I won't speak for them and their reasons or goals. In the aftermarket, it’s most common to spec a conical seat to a wheel, and there are aftermarket lug styles specific to most common aftermarket wheel specs.
To give a specific contrasting example, Neuspeed makes aftermarket wheels designed to use factory lug bolts for our applications and others. They’ve built their wheels with that fastener as an example in design and testing, and they know these bolts are well made and meet OEM standards. That’s convenient for everyone, and removes MANY variables like bolt lengths, different ball seat radius specs, needing to source bolts or ensuring the wheels are installed properly by the installer or end user. Factory bolts, factory torque specs, couldn’t be simpler.
I have dumb questions about wheels and lugs and stuff. I'm coming from a BRZ, where it was super easy to find wheels, lugs, studs, etc. Now I'm all confused with this Euro malarkey.
1) Will aftermarket wheels drilled to 5x112 automatically have a ball seat, or are there some that are 60* conical? If the latter, how do you tell the difference before purchasing?
2) When do you need to get different length lug bolts? Only in the case of spacers? Or are there wheels that, due to the thickness of the center portion, require a longer lug bolt?
3) Why tf do the Germans use lug bolts anyways? I mean srsly, what's up with that? (Edit: I guess one good thing about lug bolts is it's easier to swap them out than changing out studs. That'll save me some time when I do track prep.)
1) Will aftermarket wheels drilled to 5x112 automatically have a ball seat, or are there some that are 60* conical? If the latter, how do you tell the difference before purchasing?
2) When do you need to get different length lug bolts? Only in the case of spacers? Or are there wheels that, due to the thickness of the center portion, require a longer lug bolt?
3) Why tf do the Germans use lug bolts anyways? I mean srsly, what's up with that? (Edit: I guess one good thing about lug bolts is it's easier to swap them out than changing out studs. That'll save me some time when I do track prep.)
Let me see if I can answer some Euro malarkey.
1. That is dependent on the wheel manufacturer. You'll need to check with them or the retailer/installer to confirm. Most manufacturers state if it's ball seat, because that's actually uncommon in the aftermarket. Most will likely be conical seat and need aftermarket bolts.
2. You only need different bolts if either the wheel thickness is more than the OEM wheel, or if you use spacers, correct. Again, this is a question specific to how wheels are made and this is something the wheel manufacturer, retailer or installer should help you with. Most aftermarket wheels use the same ~27mm length for the threaded portion of the bolt like the factory bolts.
3. This one I don't have an answer for. I hate lug bolts. There are too many variables in the aftermarket like wheel thickness, seat style, things like brake rotor hat thickness that effects how much engagement you get in the hub, some vehicles with older e-brake setups had bits right behind the hub that longer bolts could contact. It's a mess. Best answer I have is that some old engineer came up with the idea at either Mercedes, BMW, Porsche or VW, with the first two being the most likely candidates. Old Porsches and VWs used to use lug nuts actually, so Mercedes/BMW are longer term offenders.
The good with bolts...uh they can be in different lengths so you don't have to press studs in/out of a hub for different wheels. If they wear out, they are cheaper/easier to replace than press in wheel studs.
You can pretty much say the opposite of those good points as bad points too. Too many length options means it's hard to know for sure the length without measuring engagement or counting turns on the vehicle. You can wear out the lug bolt hub, which means replacing a whole hub/bearing assembly. That's another reason stud conversions are so popular, you get the best of both worlds.
Thanks for the input. Are there any particular stud conversion kits that are suitable for track use? I used ARP extended studs on my BRZ and would like something similar.
This post on the last page has a link out to another post of studs I've used:
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showpost.php?p=803713&postcount=50
So far I've only had the ECS kit on my car on a track, but I'd highly recommend the Rennline studs I had on my previous car as well.
Remember that the wheel you have is going to dictate lugs, and like on your BRZ if you needed "tuner" or spline lug nuts because the wheels have super narrow lug pockets that can cause issues. Right now my Motegis BARELY have clearance to fit a 14mm x 1.50 spline lug nut because their pockets are designed for 12mm lugs or standard spline lug bolts that are ~20mm wide. My lugs are 23mm wide and the pockets are 24mm
odessa.filez
Autocross Newbie
- Location
- Roswell, GA
- Car(s)
- 2016 GSW 1.8tsi auto
Love the euro malarkey thing (your description that is)
I've been poking around on Mercedes wheels and there are some older y2k era wheels with bolts longer than 27mm. Think some are 40mm length. Also some Mercedes are 12x1.5mm and some are 14x1.5mm. There are websites that can narrow this down should you go in the Mercedes direction.
I've spoken to Cecil at Motorsport Hardware on stud conversions and he seemed pretty knowledgeable about euro malarky stud conversions
. Haven't pulled the trigger with him yet but he might be someone to speak to.
shovelhd
Autocross Champion
- Location
- Western MA
mk7_bk
Autocross Champion
- Location
- Philadelphia Area
I was going to come here to ask this since I was just on the other thread. Thank you. Are you open to telling us who you work for? // I read FP and know all this is your personal knowledge and advice not the companies in any ways, but im just curious, I see your in CA... so maybe you work for Neuspeed?
I've said before so it's not a "secret" but I didn't want to advertise or give any advice that sounded biased because of the company I work for. I work for Gorilla Automotive, and we only do lug nuts, wheel locks and wheel accessories.
Not Neuspeed, though I do have a lot of respect for what they do! I love using them as an example because as a wheel company (or company in general) you'd want nothing more than a narrow scope of vehicles to build parts for so there are less variables. They do a great job with wheels, no question.
mk7_bk
Autocross Champion
- Location
- Philadelphia Area
Very cool man, thanks for doing this ama, its super unique to this fourm and cool
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk