Ask Me Anything: Lug Nut, Bolts and Wheel Locks!

[GFGTI]

Thanks for doing this! I have a few questions; I've recently purchased used BBS CH-028 which were OEM on the B7 Audi S4. Can i use my OEM GTI bolts to install the wheels, or should I buy aftermarket bolts?

Also, what is the benefit of swapping to something like the RacingLine stud&nut kit?

 

[flipflp]

So based off of that article, looks like an anti-seize lubricant is beneficial for Titanium bolts.

I took the "What Can I Do to Prevent Galling?" as options to help avoid, but not a check list of all the things you should do for all circumstances.

For these fasteners and torque levels, I would still not recommend anti-seize or a lubricant if all other precautions are taken.

 

[JWTS]

I'm not sure about galling as I have no direct experience selling or using them, but I'd think as long as you keep everything clean and debris free you're fine for a very long time. Galling is a much bigger issue with softer metals like aluminum, which I do have experience with. Same recommendation there, clean threads will make the threads last.

We/I don't recommend anti seize or any type of lubrication on studs or lugs. That will give a false torque and ultimately stretch the threads. Dry, clean threads, that's all.

A couple of quick things here from someone who does work with a lot of fasteners, including titanium:

-I'd always recommend using antiseize with Ti. Permatex Nickel works great. They're dissimilar metals and there's absolutely the potential for galvanic corrosion. The degree to which it's a problem depends on the alloys used, but this is the single biggest issue with titanium fasteners

-I have to disagree with you on the torque value thing. Using antiseize on any fastener decreased the torque scatter; i.e. the torque will be more even. So, it's not really "false torque". You DO have to adjust the torque, though. How much depends on the lubricant used and where you put it, but if you're putting it on the threads and shoulders of a ball seat lug bolt, a 20% reduction in friction torque will give similar axial loads on a fastener of this size.

I lubricate steel lug bolts, which is likely overkill since I'm not in the rust belt--but using a Ti fastener I're really recommend it. There's one big caveat here, and that's not letting someone else work on your car... While mindlessly impacting lug bolts in is bad, it's way worse on lubricated fasteners...

 

[flipflp]

Thanks for doing this! I have a few questions; I've recently purchased used BBS CH-028 which were OEM on the B7 Audi S4. Can i use my OEM GTI bolts to install the wheels, or should I buy aftermarket bolts?

Also, what is the benefit of swapping to something like the RacingLine stud&nut kit?

As long as those wheels are the OEM BBS wheels from the B7 S4 the bolts are the exact same spec as all MK5-7 GTIs, you would just use your OEM bolts.

Stud conversion kits have a few benefits:

1. Studs give you a place to hang your wheel for easier swapping (there are bolt hanging tools as well, but 5 is better than one)
2. Less wear on the hub's threads especially for cars that have wheels swapped often
3. Ability to run a variety of wheel spacers without needing multiple bolt lengths

I could be missing something but those are the big ones.

I'm not sure how else to say this but if you know why you'd want a stud conversion kit, you should get one. If you're not sure why or aren't familiar with that part of the car, it might not be a mod for you. You're changing a part that complicates things in a few directions like using the OEM spare wheel, sourcing different lugs for factory and aftermarket wheels, stud conversion lugs often have a different hex size that the OEM lug wrench, etc.

 

[JWTS]

and a question: can you talk me out of my irrational fear of hub rings? I have never actually used them. It just seems like it's adding for the potential for something to be slightly off kilter. If there a particular type (metal/composite) that's better?

The end result is that I've really limited my wheel choices.

 

[flipflp]

A couple of quick things here from someone who does work with a lot of fasteners, including titanium:

-I'd always recommend using antiseize with Ti. Permatex Nickel works great. They're dissimilar metals and there's absolutely the potential for galvanic corrosion. The degree to which it's a problem depends on the alloys used, but this is the single biggest issue with titanium fasteners

-I have to disagree with you on the torque value thing. Using antiseize on any fastener decreased the torque scatter; i.e. the torque will be more even. So, it's not really "false torque". You DO have to adjust the torque, though. How much depends on the lubricant used and where you put it, but if you're putting it on the threads and shoulders of a ball seat lug bolt, a 20% reduction in friction torque will give similar axial loads on a fastener of this size.

I lubricate steel lug bolts, which is likely overkill since I'm not in the rust belt--but using a Ti fastener I're really recommend it. There's one big caveat here, and that's not letting someone else work on your car... While mindlessly impacting lug bolts in is bad, it's way worse on lubricated fasteners...

I really appreciate that input! It's likely that Ti is outside of my understanding, and I'm applying steel lug/bolt guidelines too broadly.

On the torque, I agree I misused "false torque". What I meant by that is your wrench clicking at 90 ft lbs is actually a higher value at the fastener. The way you describe is much better where you will over torque because of the lubrication so you need to spec down to accommodate. This is a lot for most people ESPECIALLY SHOPS, which for consistency sake is why dry clean threads are all that is recommended. 1000x to your point about working on your own vehicle, YOU might be fine to do what you do, but throw anyone else into the mix and your well laid plans crumble pretty quickly. When giving recommendations to consumers you need to provide something repeatable, so caveats need not apply.

I don't agree with putting anything on the lug bolt seat or wheel seat however. I might be able to bend on putting anti-seize on threads for titanium (though I think a Ti lug bolt manufacturer would be best to provide some suggestions there) but the seats are very critical for tension and I wouldn't want lubrication on that contact point.

 

[bdelaney4000]

I have a question... what's your take on lug nut washers specifically those that allow a conical seat lug nut to fit in a radius wheel seat? I ask because as mentioned before R13 lug nuts are hard to find and locking lug nuts are near impossible in that size. Using this config I would be able to use conical seat lug nuts for aftermarket wheels/summer tires and then use the washers when I switch over to the OEM wheels/ winter tires. Seems like a good compromise, just not sure on how safe they are.

 

[flipflp]

and a question: can you talk me out of my irrational fear of hub rings? I have never actually used them. It just seems like it's adding for the potential for something to be slightly off kilter. If there a particular type (metal/composite) that's better?

The end result is that I've really limited my wheel choices.

Absolutely!

(going to put more info out here than you probably need)

Factory wheels are hub centric, which means when the wheel sits flush against the brake rotor the hub lip is contacted 360 degrees around evenly by the wheel, centering it. When the bolts are fastened, it clamps the wheel to the hub perfectly (as perfect as it gets at least) to reduce any vibrations.

Aftermarket wheels aim to do this exact thing, but since there can be 10 vehicles for one wheel style, the center bore is machined larger and sized down to match your application by a ring. You install the wheel the exact same way, and that hub ring creates the same centering effect.

It's been said before but bears repeating, once the wheel is torqued down there is no load on the hub. It's only used to center the wheel for mounting.

I've always said that if you buy a correctly sized hub ring that is built correctly and your wheel is compatible with hub centric rings, you're fine! I can't speak for all manufacturers but the poly rings I work with for the most part are all injection molded and QC'd with very low tolerance go/no go gauges. Very repeatable process with low margin of error.

I have heard horror stories about 3 sets of rings tried, and 2 different shops road force balancing the wheels and nothing cured a 62 mph vibration. That was really common in first gen Miatas actually, because the cars chassis had a frequency it would vibrate at. Had nothing to do with wheels. Wheels can be cast poorly and way out of balance, tires can need to be rotated to use less weights, tire techs can make mistakes, there are a lot of variables. Just know that for a few decades aftermarket wheels have been installed this way and it's still going strong. If there were an actual fault or safety issue with this method you can believe someone would have sued the pants off of everyone involved.

The only other things you need to consider would be material. General recommendation is plastic or aluminum for a daily driven car (prices aren't that different now but it used to be 3-4 times as much for aluminum rings vs. plastic), plastic or a lot of anti-seize on aluminum rings if corrosion is a concern, and aluminum only if you track your car for heat concerns. A ring is a ring is a ring unless you have specific concerns.

 

[flipflp]

I have a question... what's your take on lug nut washers specifically those that allow a conical seat lug nut to fit in a radius wheel seat? I ask because as mentioned before R13 lug nuts are hard to find and locking lug nuts are near impossible in that size. Using this config I would be able to use conical seat lug nuts for aftermarket wheels/summer tires and then use the washers when I switch over to the OEM wheels/ winter tires. Seems like a good compromise, just not sure on how safe they are.

I don't like them or recommend them. I feel your pain about lug and lock options though, and for the most part that is a US based issue. Lug Bolts are 100 times less common here so there is much less demand to create options. EDIT: If you're talking about R13 lug NUT locks, oh yeah you're out of luck. I don't know if anyone is going to develop that due to the niche.

I know of the washers you're talking about, but unless someone states the ball seat spec is R13 and it fills the wheel seat perfectly, and you confirm thread engagement of the bolt since that washer will likely act as a bit of a spacer, I don't like the idea of using them. Too many what if's, and if the washer fails or is lost you have other issues.

Goes back to what JWTS said about working on your own car, even if all of these little tweaks you do to your car are 100% safe, someone else working on your car isn't going to get it and will mess up your plans.

 

[bdelaney4000]

Goes back to what JWTS said about working on your own car, even if all of these little tweaks you do to your car are 100% safe, someone else working on your car isn't going to get it and will mess up your plans.

I usually do all my own work on the car but to your point if I ever had to bring it to a dealer for warranty work or something all bets are off.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[odessa.filez]

So you're saying you need to torque the bolts more to get to 80 ft lbs?



Pretty sure OEM torque spec is 88 ft lbs.

actually what i do is hand tighten with the socket and extension (both wheels on one side), then hit the lugs with the impact, again with the extension.

Then I set the car on the ground after both sides of the car are done as above and use the torque wrench to finish ( I go to 85 rather than 88).

 

[flipflp]

actually what i do is hand tighten with the socket and extension (both wheels on one side), then hit the lugs with the impact, again with the extension.

Then I set the car on the ground after both sides of the car are done as above and use the torque wrench to finish ( I go to 85 rather than 88).

Got it. I'm sure the extra rotation is just from accuracy/inaccuracy from the stick or wrench. So you're still not a bad person

 

[JerseyDrew77]

What's a good option for wheel locks? I have a set of VMR wheels that are 18 x 8.5 ET 45.

 

[flipflp]

What's a good option for wheel locks? I have a set of VMR wheels that are 18 x 8.5 ET 45.

Your VMRs use the factory bolts and everything correct? I had a set of V702s on my CC and there was space for normal wheel locks just fine.

One of the biggest issues with wheel locks in aftermarket wheels is how narrow the lug nut pocket is. Some wheels allow for standard sockets that are 1" or more wide, others just don't have the clearance which really limits your options.

I'll PM you some part numbers to take a look at.

 

[sprinks]

I took the "What Can I Do to Prevent Galling?" as options to help avoid, but not a check list of all the things you should do for all circumstances.

For these fasteners and torque levels, I would still not recommend anti-seize or a lubricant if all other precautions are taken.

Exactly this. While no anti-seize/anti-gall material does increase the chances of galling, if you're installing by hand-tool and taking care with the other practices, everything will be fine. Don't impact on high-speed, but I wouldn't recommend that with stainless steel bolts either.