Ask Me Anything: Lug Nut, Bolts and Wheel Locks!

[flipflp]

okay another one

I use an impact with an 80ft lb torque extension. Then I take the torque wrench to it and usually get 5-10 degrees before a click.

Does this make me a bad person?

Bad person? NO! The fact you actually attempt to torque your lugs/bolts is well beyond what most people do. You're just efficient.

So you're saying you need to torque the bolts more to get to 80 ft lbs? That is probably within the tolerance/variance of the torque stick, they are not as accurate as a torque wrench IMO. Your torque wrench could also be off in the opposite direction, but if you're in the range that's better than "2 dugga duggas" from the unregulated air supply powered 800 ft lbs EARTHQUAKE impact gun at the shop down the street.

Pretty sure OEM torque spec is 88 ft lbs.

 

[Sandman GTI]

I LOVE titanium as a material for lug bolts, lug nuts, studs, all that. Strong, light, no iron so it won't rust, it's perfect. Except for the cost, but if you've already got them you know that haha.

I'm not sure about galling as I have no direct experience selling or using them, but I'd think as long as you keep everything clean and debris free you're fine for a very long time. Galling is a much bigger issue with softer metals like aluminum, which I do have experience with. Same recommendation there, clean threads will make the threads last.

We/I don't recommend anti seize or any type of lubrication on studs or lugs. That will give a false torque and ultimately stretch the threads. Dry, clean threads, that's all.

My dad was a tech for GM for 30 years and did a lot of the ASE courses. In a course on steering and brakes they did a quick test on a brand new truck where they marked a lug/stud after confirming torque spec. They removed the lug, applied a drop of trans fluid and re-torqued. The marks no longer lined up, and got further and further apart with each installation and removal, even after the threads were cleaned. Was a great example/lesson from my pops.

Thanks for the reply.
That confirms the info I found prior to purchase.
I love the Titanium bolts. Feel good when installing and also look good.
Cost really is not bad. USP had a sale at Christmas for a set of $20 bolts it cost $200. So $10 each. Normal steel bolts are just under $3 each. We spend more than this on an exhaust system for sound only and do not even think about it.
The Pagani Huayra uses all Titanium hardware in the car. Saves weight but also a huge cost.

 

[JerseyDrew77]

My Titanium bolts arrived today from USP. When installing for the first time, are you supposed to clean out the area where you install them?

 

[flipflp]

Thanks for the reply.
That confirms the info I found prior to purchase.
I love the Titanium bolts. Feel good when installing and also look good.
Cost really is not bad. USP had a sale at Christmas for a set of $20 bolts it cost $200. So $10 each. Normal steel bolts are just under $3 each. We spend more than this on an exhaust system for sound only and do not even think about it.
The Pagani Huayra uses all Titanium hardware in the car. Saves weight but also a huge cost.

I had forgotten that some retailers found sources in China or Taiwan for titanium lug bolts. That's a fairly new offering outside off really boutique manufacturers like Tikore. $10 is well worth the long term durability benefits, especially if you live in an area with salted roads in the winter.

Using titanium as a material doesn't dissolve all of the specifics needed for making a good fastener though, but as long as the grade used is correct I imagine the only big difference between a $200 set of bolts and a $500 set of bolts is the volume production and the finishing.

 

[flipflp]

My Titanium bolts arrived today from USP. When installing for the first time, are you supposed to clean out the area where you install them?

The only thing I would do is run a wire brush type thing through your threads in the hub to get any dirt or residue out and enjoy. Maybe some compressed air or solvent to remove any greasy residue. You don't have to baby them, but little things pay off long term. There probably won't be any manufacturer recommendations with the bolts but you can ask USP the same question to see if they had something shared with them.

 

[gregozedobe]

Titanium bolts, negatives?
One member mentioned galling.
So far over 2 years no issues.
Is anti seize an option? How does this change torque value?

I've had problems with Ti galling on flashlight threads, but these were very fine threads with Ti male into Ti female. I'm not a metallurgical engineer but I wouldn't be surprised to find that Ti into steel was OK (maybe do a bit more research if you have concerns).

 

[Mother]

Titanium bolts, negatives?
One member mentioned galling.
So far over 2 years no issues.
Is anti seize an option? How does this change torque value?

I was under the impression that the USP titanium bolts are R13 ball seat and that your OZ wheels are R12 ball seat...

There is definitely a bit of confusing info on R12 vs R13 online as it seems most sellers just list "ball seat" as if they are all the same (including USP, but I assume theirs are R13 since they say they are for use with stock wheels).

I have OZ Ultraleggeras, which are supposed to be R12 seats and when I wanted black bolts for them the only ones I could find were from Otis. When I searched the part number they list to see if there are any other sellers and found it's the same part number ECS has on the lugs they sell to use with stock wheels. Based on that I'm thinking anyone with an ECS flush kit or black bolts is likely using R12 bolts instead of R13 on their stock wheels, which isn't supposed to be correct, but you don't hear of anyone having issues.

 

[sprinks]

I've had problems with Ti galling on flashlight threads, but these were very fine threads with Ti male into Ti female. I'm not a metallurgical engineer but I wouldn't be surprised to find that Ti into steel was OK (maybe do a bit more research if you have concerns).

At the torque-tension we're putting on lugnuts for wheels, galling should not be an issue as long as the areas threading into are also clean. Torque to appropriate spec, don't use a lubricant. When removing and reinstalling, clean with hot soapy water to remove any corrosion product on the thread.

 

[JerseyDrew77]

What is the torque spec for our cars? Is it 88?

 

[flipflp]

I was under the impression that the USP titanium bolts are R13 ball seat and that your OZ wheels are R12 ball seat...

There is definitely a bit of confusing info on R12 vs R13 online as it seems most sellers just list "ball seat" as if they are all the same (including USP, but I assume theirs are R13 since they say they are for use with stock wheels).

I have OZ Ultraleggeras, which are supposed to be R12 seats and when I wanted black bolts for them the only ones I could find were from Otis. When I searched the part number they list to see if there are any other sellers and found it's the same part number ECS has on the lugs they sell to use with stock wheels. Based on that I'm thinking anyone with an ECS flush kit or black bolts is likely using R12 bolts instead of R13 on their stock wheels, which isn't supposed to be correct, but you don't hear of anyone having issues.

Oh ball seat bolts/nuts, I hate them. I don't care for lug bolts in general since there are so many more concerns than with lug nuts, but that's a separate post.

Ball Seat Radius' are something of a grey area with aftermarket lug nuts/bolts and wheel fitment, but really shouldn't be.

The radius of a bolt is significantly more complicated to forge and measure, and the differences aren't really obvious to the naked eye. Because the bolt has such a small section, you really need to see that seat carry out a fuller arc to see and easily measure the differences. It's not just the R number spec that's important, there is also the width of the seat that is going to affect fit in a given wheel, but the seat width has no correlation to the R number. Fun right?

Porsche for example uses an R14 seat like Mercedes. OEM Porsche bolts are also 1"+ wide at the seat. These bolts are not only the wrong radius for most wheels but they are likely so wide that the seat would only touch the very top of the wheel seat even on a R14 Mercedes wheel. If that seat was narrower in width where it could fit inside of a smaller diameter wheel seat even if the Radius was incorrect, it would make more contact with the seat. Maybe not "sufficient" contact, but that's difficult to measure without a lot of testing equipment.

What we're really looking at is torque tension and clamping force, which is the bread and butter of a wheel fastener. It's primary job is to clamp the wheel to the hub, and between the threads and seat, hold that torque in tension until it's broken manually. The better the seat of the wheel makes contact with the fastener, the higher that force, the better the wheel is held on, the less likely your wheel is going to beat you to your destination.

With ball seat radius' you need these elements to match to be ideal. If they don't match, is that immediately an issue where tension will be lost? In my experience no, and thankfully so. Even though the engineering side disagrees the physics have a bit of wiggle room for what ultimately holds. That's not to say that any OEM would play fast and loose with ball seat radius', but in the aftermarket ball matches ball with only a few outliers like Porsche.

Opinion here: Aftermarket Ball Seat wheels should only exist for specific applications to allow the continued use of factory fasteners. Period. What Neuspeed does uncomplicates this entire process by making a wheel that at the hub is effectively an OEM wheel. Same pad thickness and ball seat radius, so it uses the factory bolts. Awesome.

For every other wheel, conical seats should be spec'd. That eliminates an OEM only element that has many variations and creates a consistent 60 degree taper spec. Then all you need to be concerned with is lug bolt length, which is fun in it's own way to confirm.

OZ Wheels that use a ball seat, where I know Tire Rack provides a spec of 36mm under head length and an R12 ball seat radius, matches zero OEM specs exactly as far as I can find. Closest would be an older Mercedes application which had a ~40mm OEM bolt length and an R12 seat. That's vehicles with a year model prior to 2007. So except for someone rocking a 190E Cosworth, no one with a modern VW/Audi or MB with a 5x112 has fasteners that match that wheel. IMO, OZ needs to update that wheel!

 

[flipflp]

What is the torque spec for our cars? Is it 88?

That is correct. I usually do 90 on bolts for a round number and 100-ish on stud conversions. Whats a 10% torque variation between friends, right?

 

[GLoBaLReBeL]

extended lug nuts . . .

how much 'meat' needs to be through the nut in order for the strength be considered good enough? I have some lugs that only go about 1/4" into the lug nut on one of my cars. Just wondering for my own peace of mind.

 

[flipflp]

At the torque-tension we're putting on lugnuts for wheels, galling should not be an issue as long as the areas threading into are also clean. Torque to appropriate spec, don't use a lubricant. When removing and reinstalling, clean with hot soapy water to remove any corrosion product on the thread.

I wanted a bit more information on the subject and found this reference:

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Thread-galling.aspx

Based on that, I think another recommendation for titanium bolts would to only install by hand. Use of an impact gun would greatly increase the chances of galling by creating heat. I'm not sure how dis-similar metals change this situation but I feel that's a solid recommendation regardless.

 

[flipflp]

extended lug nuts . . .

how much 'meat' needs to be through the nut in order for the strength be considered good enough? I have some lugs that only go about 1/4" into the lug nut on one of my cars. Just wondering for my own peace of mind.

When you say extended lug nuts, do you mean something like an ET style lug nut that has a shank below the conical seat?

The industry standard for thread engagement is equal to the width of the threads. So for a 12mm thread, you need 12mm worth of thread engagement at minimum. If you're using an ET style lug nut which typically has a 0.25" shank length, you should still have 0.25" of threads inside of the body past the shank for a total of 0.50".

If you only have 1/4" of engagement without an ET style lug nut, you should definitely consider an ET style lug nut. You are putting too much stress on too few threads without that. These lugs are almost universally needed for Toyota and Lexus applications due to the OEM lug styles allowing shorter wheel studs. In the aftermarket with thicker wheels this means less than safe engagement with a standard conical seat lug nut in most applications.

Fun fact: ET lugs are not a new invention, and ET doesn't stand for Extended Thread. ET stands for Elapsed Time, like over a 1/4 mile, and was a wheel brand in the 60s that used a unique lug style with a shank below a conical seat and metal washer with a matching conical seat to better center mag wheels and reduce vibrations that were common on the drag strip.

Alloy or Mag wheels weren't strong enough at the time to accept a conical seat lug like steel wheels, and Mag Style lug nuts did nothing to center the wheels (this is before hub centric alloy wheels were a thing) so they made a hybrid of the two styles to solve a problem. Very cool stuff. If you like lug nut history of course.

 

[JerseyDrew77]

I wanted a bit more information on the subject and found this reference:

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Thread-galling.aspx

Based on that, I think another recommendation for titanium bolts would to only install by hand. Use of an impact gun would greatly increase the chances of galling by creating heat. I'm not sure how dis-similar metals change this situation but I feel that's a solid recommendation regardless.

So based off of that article, looks like an anti-seize lubricant is beneficial for Titanium bolts.