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Building a motor

psychonosspaz

Go Kart Champion
Location
PNW
So when people say they built their motors I'm assuming this is with forged internals to handle extra power? What does this cost normally? Ballpark? North of 450whp I think this is probably advised.....anyone out there done it yet? Maybe a new thread is in order
 

0bLiViOuS

Go Kart Champion
Location
Orange County
It's more torque you have to worry about. I think around 425wtq is around the recommended peak on a stock motor. I think you're safe on the stock (although near limits) with hybrid turbos, but all depends how big the turbo you go with.

If I went BOSS600 for example I'd build my motor with rods, pistons and upgraded valvetrain. No clue the torque it's putting out on average, but to make use of the turbos powerband, I'd want to rev it out to 8k-ish. I forget the formula, but as you increase rpm, it is something like squaring or quadrupling the load on the rods.

Basically if you're keeping stock redline and not going bigger than a hybrid, you're most likely ok on a stock motor. This is a vast generalization though.

Maybe Quebster can chime in since I think his is built? I think it's $2k or so for IE rods and pistons. Not including labor, I wouldn't be surprised if a shop charges $8k for the work.
 

Wrath And Tears

Go Kart Champion
Location
Azusa, CA
Car(s)
17 Sport, 99 E36
It's more torque you have to worry about. I think around 425wtq is around the recommended peak on a stock motor. I think you're safe on the stock (although near limits) with hybrid turbos, but all depends how big the turbo you go with.

If I went BOSS600 for example I'd build my motor with rods, pistons and upgraded valvetrain. No clue the torque it's putting out on average, but to make use of the turbos powerband, I'd want to rev it out to 8k-ish. I forget the formula, but as you increase rpm, it is something like squaring or quadrupling the load on the rods.

Basically if you're keeping stock redline and not going bigger than a hybrid, you're most likely ok on a stock motor. This is a vast generalization though.

Maybe Quebster can chime in since I think his is built? I think it's $2k or so for IE rods and pistons. Not including labor, I wouldn't be surprised if a shop charges $8k for the work.

I think you hit it spot on, I was gonna say around $10k if you pay to have the work done.

Some people like to pick up a junkyard engine so that they can build it themselves and not have to worry about having their car down.
 

railroader

Autocross Newbie
Location
Yuma Arizona
I think you hit it spot on, I was gonna say around $10k if you pay to have the work done.

Some people like to pick up a junkyard engine so that they can build it themselves and not have to worry about having their car down.
That's what I would do

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
 

Twist1

Autocross Newbie
It's a hard question to answer as there's not a lot of ie / mahle builds running around in the wild. Probably because they are not an inherent weakness up to the mid to high 400s, which is pushing the stock fueling way before the internals. It has been done though. It is stupidly expensive on these cars. 10k + maybe more all in for a shop.
With the ability to make mid 400s with a bolt on turbo upgrade and hpfp to maestro up to e50 with supporting bolt ons, there's not s huge incentive for guys to do this.

If you're wanting to build a sub ten second car and are looking at internals you are in the hella wrong platform for that..
 

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
Location
USA
Car(s)
MK 6 GolfR
So when people say they built their motors I'm assuming this is with forged internals to handle extra power? What does this cost normally? Ballpark? North of 450whp I think this is probably advised.....anyone out there done it yet? Maybe a new thread is in order

You can buy an assembled short block from Intergrated Engineering with all the forged parts for 500hp for 3999.00. That way you can get it pretty quick and drive your car until it is time to pull motor.

I just built my MKV GTI motor for that kind of power and I wish I had just bought a pre-assembled one from Intergrated Engineering. At first I bought a spare motor to have them work on that while I drove my car. The spare motor was purchased out of a car from a salvage yard and there was damage to block internally that we didn't know about until we were boring cylinders. So I then pulled my running motor from my car so I knew i had a good block. It is a hassle building your motor, better to just buy one all done from IE.
 

0bLiViOuS

Go Kart Champion
Location
Orange County
Ya I was curious what the IE blocks were running. I was tempted to pull my motor and build it since I have other cars, but I'll probably never go past the stock fueling
 

crxgator

Autocross Champion
Location
Raleigh, NC
Car(s)
All the MQBs
I’ve received two quotes on a built / rebuilt long block using IE pistons and rods, with all new chains and hardware, ARP hewdstuds and it was $4500 with block.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Hoon

Autocross Champion
Location
Rhode Island
I'm going to write a novel on this one...

This platform is 4 years old, and no one has a legitimate idea what the stock engine is capable of. People have decided that 400-450wtq is a safe and reasonable limit, and that has become the general consensus, but there is zero data to back that up. It's commonly accepted, but not fact. I've been above 400WTQ for awhile, and my oil analysis results show wear levels below what many people see on stock cars. Keep in mind these engines are closed deck iron block and fully forged from the factory. That was a major consideration in why i bought an MK7...it's a recipe for reliability at high power levels.

Determining the limit of an engine is very complex, and i've been around this stuff long enough to know that the commonly accepted limits are typically bullshit. Many years ago i was into 4G63s, and in the beginning everyone thought 450-500whp was the safe limit for a stock motor. People who wanted to go above that built motors...which ended up being a complete waste of time and money. Eventually, people started making 600-700+whp and buzzing 8,000+ rpm on the stock bottom end (pushing street cars into the 9s @140+). The first 9 second stock bottom DSM had 100K miles, 900 passes at 550awhp, and another 50 or so passes above that. Eventually the block cracked, which wouldn't have been prevented by building the motor. His secret was an aftermarket ECU that provided much better knock control than the factory one (back then stock ECUs were junk, now they're incredible).

Same thing can be seen with the GM LS engines. Stock bottom end 4.8s have made 1200hp, 5.3s have been over 1300hp, and 6.0s have been over 1500hp...and that's with Gen III engines. The Gen IV was a significantly stronger design, the 5.3 has been 7.16@190mph, yet i have friends that have blown them to bits with slow ass 650hp cars. They never reached anywhere near the structural capability of any of the components, but they failed to control knock (cheap intercoolers, pump gas, etc).

Controlling knock is the single biggest factor in keeping engines alive. Turbos are the most gentle power adder, so even average internals are capable of some pretty serious power if setup and tuned correctly. Keep the IATs down and the octane up, and you'd be surprised what engines will take.

I have a turbo GSXR with a factory sealed motor. I was told over and over it would blow up above 6 psi. I'm running 11psi with 12.5:1 compression, and not a single degree of timing removed from the original timing map. The secret is controlling knock and combustion temps by running E85, and high viscosity oils (50wt).

Don't get me wrong, built motors are awesome. I had a built 4G63, and the thing was tough as nails, but at the end of the day if i had put the money in other places, i could have gone faster on a stock bottom end than i ever did on the built motor.

I don't like the idea of building a motor because you think you have to, or because the general consensus is that you should. There are a million factors that determine how much power you can make safely (intended use, power adder type, temps, knock, ECU capabilities, and the tune, to name a few). Consider those carefully and go from there. You can't look at where one engine failed and think that's the limit for the components, engines fail stock.

I will say, a built motor is in a way, an insurance policy. If you're pushing stock components to high power levels, a small problem can cause a catastrophic failure, where as a built motor will tolerate a lean condition or knock event MUCH better than a stock one.

Also, be very careful who builds your engine if you go that route. I've seen brand new engines from big name builders (top dollar stuff) fail terribly because of builder error. Hell, one of them had a paper towel in the oil pan which clogged the pickup, lost the engine and both turbos. There are several machine shops near me, but the only one i'll go to is a 2 hour drive. Also, good machine work shouldn't be terribly expensive. Some machinists are like some tuners, they try to convince you there is magic involved, and way overcharge you for their particular brand of wizardry. Simply bullshit. The choice of your machinist is far more important than the brand of rods or pistons you choose, so be smart.
 
Last edited:

BronxBomber

Ready to race!
Location
Orlando,FL
I'm going to write a novel on this one...

This platform is 4 years old, and no one has a legitimate idea what the stock engine is capable of. People have decided that 400-450wtq is a safe and reasonable limit, and that has become the general consensus, but there is zero data to back that up. It's commonly accepted, but not fact. I've been above 400WTQ for awhile, and my oil analysis results show wear levels below what many people see on stock cars. Keep in mind these engines are closed deck iron block and fully forged from the factory. That was a major consideration in why i bought an MK7...it's a recipe for reliability at high power levels.

Determining the limit of an engine is very complex, and i've been around this stuff long enough to know that the commonly accepted limits are typically bullshit. Many years ago i was into 4G63s, and in the beginning everyone thought 450-500whp was the safe limit for a stock motor. People who wanted to go above that built motors...which ended up being a complete waste of time and money. Eventually, people started making 600-700+whp and buzzing 8,000+ rpm on the stock bottom end (pushing street cars into the 9s @140+). The first 9 second stock bottom DSM had 100K miles, 900 passes at 550awhp, and another 50 or so passes above that. Eventually the block cracked, which wouldn't have been prevented by building the motor. His secret was an aftermarket ECU that provided much better knock control than the factory one (back then stock ECUs were junk, now they're incredible).

Same thing can be seen with the GM LS engines. Stock bottom end 4.8s have made 1200hp, 5.3s have been over 1300hp, and 6.0s have been over 1500hp...and that's with Gen III engines. The Gen IV was a significantly stronger design, the 5.3 has been 7.16@190mph, yet i have friends that have blown them to bits with slow ass 650hp cars. They never reached anywhere near the structural capability of any of the components, but they failed to control knock (cheap intercoolers, pump gas, etc).

Controlling knock is the single biggest factor in keeping engines alive. Turbos are the most gentle power adder, so even average internals are capable of some pretty serious power if setup and tuned correctly. Keep the IATs down and the octane up, and you'd be surprised what engines will take.

I have a turbo GSXR with a factory sealed motor. I was told over and over it would blow up above 6 psi. I'm running 11psi with 12.5:1 compression, and not a single degree of timing removed from the original timing map. The secret is controlling knock and combustion temps by running E85, and high viscosity oils (50wt).

Don't get me wrong, built motors are awesome. I had a built 4G63, and the thing was tough as nails, but at the end of the day if i had put the money in other places, i could have gone faster on a stock bottom end than i ever did on the built motor.

I don't like the idea of building a motor because you think you have to, or because the general consensus is that you should. There are a million factors that determine how much power you can make safely (intended use, power adder type, temps, knock, ECU capabilities, and the tune, to name a few). Consider those carefully and go from there. You can't look at where one engine failed and think that's the limit for the components, engines fail stock.

I will say, a built motor is in a way, an insurance policy. If you're pushing stock components to high power levels, a small problem can cause a catastrophic failure, where as a built motor will tolerate a lean condition or knock event MUCH better than a stock one.

Also, be very careful who builds your engine if you go that route. I've seen brand new engines from big name builders (top dollar stuff) fail terribly because of builder error. Hell, one of them had a paper towel in the oil pan which clogged the pickup, lost the engine and both turbos. There are several machine shops near me, but the only one i'll go to is a 2 hour drive. Also, good machine work shouldn't be terribly expensive. Some machinists are like some tuners, they try to convince you there is magic involved, and way overcharge you for their particular brand of wizardry. Simply bullshit. The choice of your machinist is far more important than the brand of rods or pistons you choose, so be smart.

Great post :D
 

psychonosspaz

Go Kart Champion
Location
PNW
I'm going to write a novel on this one...

This platform is 4 years old, and no one has a legitimate idea what the stock engine is capable of. People have decided that 400-450wtq is a safe and reasonable limit, and that has become the general consensus, but there is zero data to back that up. It's commonly accepted, but not fact. I've been above 400WTQ for awhile, and my oil analysis results show wear levels below what many people see on stock cars. Keep in mind these engines are closed deck iron block and fully forged from the factory. That was a major consideration in why i bought an MK7...it's a recipe for reliability at high power levels.

Determining the limit of an engine is very complex, and i've been around this stuff long enough to know that the commonly accepted limits are typically bullshit. Many years ago i was into 4G63s, and in the beginning everyone thought 450-500whp was the safe limit for a stock motor. People who wanted to go above that built motors...which ended up being a complete waste of time and money. Eventually, people started making 600-700+whp and buzzing 8,000+ rpm on the stock bottom end (pushing street cars into the 9s @140+). The first 9 second stock bottom DSM had 100K miles, 900 passes at 550awhp, and another 50 or so passes above that. Eventually the block cracked, which wouldn't have been prevented by building the motor. His secret was an aftermarket ECU that provided much better knock control than the factory one (back then stock ECUs were junk, now they're incredible).

Same thing can be seen with the GM LS engines. Stock bottom end 4.8s have made 1200hp, 5.3s have been over 1300hp, and 6.0s have been over 1500hp...and that's with Gen III engines. The Gen IV was a significantly stronger design, the 5.3 has been 7.16@190mph, yet i have friends that have blown them to bits with slow ass 650hp cars. They never reached anywhere near the structural capability of any of the components, but they failed to control knock (cheap intercoolers, pump gas, etc).

Controlling knock is the single biggest factor in keeping engines alive. Turbos are the most gentle power adder, so even average internals are capable of some pretty serious power if setup and tuned correctly. Keep the IATs down and the octane up, and you'd be surprised what engines will take.

I have a turbo GSXR with a factory sealed motor. I was told over and over it would blow up above 6 psi. I'm running 11psi with 12.5:1 compression, and not a single degree of timing removed from the original timing map. The secret is controlling knock and combustion temps by running E85, and high viscosity oils (50wt).

Don't get me wrong, built motors are awesome. I had a built 4G63, and the thing was tough as nails, but at the end of the day if i had put the money in other places, i could have gone faster on a stock bottom end than i ever did on the built motor.

I don't like the idea of building a motor because you think you have to, or because the general consensus is that you should. There are a million factors that determine how much power you can make safely (intended use, power adder type, temps, knock, ECU capabilities, and the tune, to name a few). Consider those carefully and go from there. You can't look at where one engine failed and think that's the limit for the components, engines fail stock.

I will say, a built motor is in a way, an insurance policy. If you're pushing stock components to high power levels, a small problem can cause a catastrophic failure, where as a built motor will tolerate a lean condition or knock event MUCH better than a stock one.

Also, be very careful who builds your engine if you go that route. I've seen brand new engines from big name builders (top dollar stuff) fail terribly because of builder error. Hell, one of them had a paper towel in the oil pan which clogged the pickup, lost the engine and both turbos. There are several machine shops near me, but the only one i'll go to is a 2 hour drive. Also, good machine work shouldn't be terribly expensive. Some machinists are like some tuners, they try to convince you there is magic involved, and way overcharge you for their particular brand of wizardry. Simply bullshit. The choice of your machinist is far more important than the brand of rods or pistons you choose, so be smart.



Best write up I have seen in a long time - thanks!
 

dwvw

Go Kart Newbie
The limit of around 420wtq is actually not a wild guess like you say it is. It is mostly from tons of testing by Iroz Motorsports. They have done ton of testing that indicated this as around the maximum safe torque. Also while the internals are forged, they pretty weak and won't hold up ar all like an aftermarket forged rod or piston.
 

SugarMouth

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Nevada
The limit of around 420wtq is actually not a wild guess like you say it is. It is mostly from tons of testing by Iroz Motorsports. They have done ton of testing that indicated this as around the maximum safe torque. Also while the internals are forged, they pretty weak and won't hold up ar all like an aftermarket forged rod or piston.

Yeah I spoke with Iroz about that. I think testing done with them and UM came up with this being a "safe" limit to stay under. Not that more can't be done but a general guideline.

We are talking 420 wheel tq, not flywheel.
 

Hoon

Autocross Champion
Location
Rhode Island
The limit of around 420wtq is actually not a wild guess like you say it is. It is mostly from tons of testing by Iroz Motorsports. They have done ton of testing that indicated this as around the maximum safe torque. Also while the internals are forged, they pretty weak and won't hold up ar all like an aftermarket forged rod or piston.

That tons of testing was done to establish a number at which reliability could be guaranteed, not an absolute. If anyone has tested this motor to failure, I'd love to see the results. I've searched for it a few times, never have been able to find one.

I'm well aware of the difference between a stock forged rod and an aftermarket forging.

Yeah I spoke with Iroz about that. I think testing done with them and UM came up with this being a "safe" limit to stay under. Not that more can't be done but a general guideline.

We are talking 420 wheel tq, not flywheel.

Exactly.

They have turbos and tunes to sell, blowing up cars is bad for business. If they say 420wtq is fine, chances are the limit is much higher with the appropriate setup and safety measures.
 

GTI Jake

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte, NC
Hoon has it covered :cool:

I would like to think I’ll do a Boss 500 or similar someday, but at this rate by then all you guys will be done with mk7 and the mk8 will be out lol

Anyway if I do, I wouldn’t open up the engine for anything. Just fueling mods (maybe) and tuning
 
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