Stupid question. Take it easy on me :)

[Hoon]

Obviously didn't read the post...

Originally Posted by Hoon
You do realize the larger disc is for heat dissipation, and clamping force is not the limiting factor, right?

Otherwise you'd see race cars with 8" discs and 10 pot calipers.

I was just correcting him...as you do see race cars with small discs & loads of pistons...278mm discs & 6 pistons...

You're correcting me based on a rule, not a decision about how to make the car faster.

In fact, the motivation for the rule can only be to push the limits of material science, or to limit the car.

This is also an application with carbon brakes designed to perform best at about 1000 degrees...the complete opposite of what we see on a steel disc. Apples / chimpanzees.

 

[golfdave]

I did read the post, the questions still stand. Guess you always have to have the last word.

specifically which question is that then???

 

[oddspyke]

Wow, this got off the rails quickly...

As many of you are quickly learning, golfdave is kind of an anti-PP troll. He's started this convo in other threads too. There is no reasoning with him, just let it go. Moderators will pick him up eventually.

Oh, and those tiny F1 brakes? They have a lot more to do with the small required wheel size elsewhere in the rulebook.

 

[Wrath And Tears]

specifically which question is that then???

F1 is a special beast. Do any other Motorsports run super small rotors with multi-pot calipers? I know old F1 used to have way larger rotors, but technology and safety has constantly changed the rules. One reason for the small rotors is for safety if the car disintegrates. As back in the day they would fly off and kill people just like the wheels. I'm sure the reason they use the multi-pots is to offset the reduced braking area from the smaller rotors. So does a small rotor, big caliper = large rotor, small caliper when it comes to braking? Where do they trade off on a scale? Would be cool to know.

....

Oh, and those tiny F1 brakes? They have a lot more to do with the small required wheel size elsewhere in the rulebook.

This guy knows whats up!

 

[heiney9]

Why are we quoting F1 rules, wtf.

A race car, one whose sole purpose is to race is a completely different animal than what we are discussing in this thread. Does the GTi come with a 4-pot brake option? No, so wtf?

These, since you didn't bother to go back a few posts.

 

[heiney9]

Wow, this got off the rails quickly...

As many of you are quickly learning, golfdave is kind of an anti-PP troll. He's started this convo in other threads too. There is no reasoning with him, just let it go. Moderators will pick him up eventually.

Yeah, P/P cars are the work of the Devil (I mean marketing department). They are fat, gluttonous pigs of a car who on paper are completely inept compared to a std 3-door GTi. Should put everyone one of them in the car compactor...........gives the std GTi a bad name .

That's why for 2018 just about every GTi variation comes standard with what used to be the P/P. But now since it's a "standard" GTi, I'm sure he'll be singing those praises.

 

[Sandman GTI]

I am a PP fan boy!
Wait, that sounds weird.

It is up to the buyer what they want.
I wanted it all so I have an Autobahn PP with LP and DCC.
So it is heavy right?
But I think the PP is a fun place to start.

Add lighter wheels.
Summer tires
2piece light disc brakes.
Better pads and brake fluid.

Will I be faster?
Who knows I will likely never race you.

But if a non PP and PP cars are for sale and both have same mods and options, the PP car will likely sell first. It is a good option and I am glad VW offers it.
We argue about this and at the same time want all the options they offer in Europe.
So enjoy it. If you do not want it do not buy it.
Just do not go around trying to dump on my PP.
Be happy VW puts these options out and hope they become standard in future models.
Maybe next time we get a Clubsport type car then non PP guys can dump on it.

 

[Hoon]

Yeah, P/P cars are the work of the Devil (I mean marketing department). They are fat, gluttonous pigs of a car who on paper are completely inept compared to a std 3-door GTi. Should put everyone one of them in the car compactor...........gives the std GTi a bad name .

That's why for 2018 just about every GTi variation comes standard with what used to be the P/P. But now since it's a "standard" GTi, I'm sure he'll be singing those praises.

Maybe Dave's lack of appreciation for the PP stems from his car's 138hp.

Not being an ass...but seriously if you make our equivalent of 138hp at the crank, limited slip diff and big brakes are somewhere between unimportant and counterproductive.

Making at least 350hp at the crank (which I knew I would do before I bought the car), the weight on the axle helps the car hook, and the diff is critical to turning the power into forward progress.

There have been a couple of times when I've had to get on the brakes hard at high speeds...at no point when braking from 150mph to 50mph have I thought "I wish I had smaller brakes".

 

[2slowvw]

I have the base model S and couldn't be happier with it. That being said If the PP/LP version in 2016 was the same price I would have definitely gone with it.

That being said the original question was would the power be the same of a PP and non PP car if it got flashed with the same tune. The answer to that would be Yes.

 

[heiney9]

Maybe Dave's lack of appreciation for the PP stems from his car's 138hp.

Not being an ass...but seriously if you make our equivalent of 138hp at the crank, limited slip diff and big brakes are somewhere between unimportant and counterproductive.

Making at least 350hp at the crank (which I knew I would do before I bought the car), the weight on the axle helps the car hook, and the diff is critical to turning the power into forward progress.

There have been a couple of times when I've had to get on the brakes hard at high speeds...at no point when braking from 150mph to 50mph have I thought "I wish I had smaller brakes".

I can see anyone wanting to "justify" their own purchase by downplaying other more capable cars. But he goes a bit beyond that with a bunch of non-sense that has little if any bearing on what most people do with their cars.......and that's daily drive them.

I think we are all aware of the engineering and mechanical principles, they really don't mean squat in a DD at the minor levels he's pointing out. Yes, unsprung weight is important in the right application/situation, yes lighter brakes are important in the right application/situation, etc, etc, etc. But to blare that from a loudspeaker and apply it to each every situation and circumstance inferring that it has to be that way, is a bit short sighted and over the top and makes him look a bit silly when debating in some circumstances and real life situations.

 

[golfdave]

golfdave is kind of an anti-PP troll. He's started this convo in other threads too. There is no reasoning with him, just let it go. Moderators will pick him up eventually.

Maybe Dave's lack of appreciation for the PP stems from his car's 138hp.

Not being an ass...but seriously if you make our equivalent of 138hp at the crank, limited slip diff and big brakes are somewhere between unimportant and counterproductive.

Making at least 350hp at the crank (which I knew I would do before I bought the car), the weight on the axle helps the car hook, and the diff is critical to turning the power into forward progress.

There have been a couple of times when I've had to get on the brakes hard at high speeds...at no point when braking from 150mph to 50mph have I thought "I wish I had smaller brakes".

I can see anyone wanting to "justify" their own purchase by downplaying other more capable cars. But he goes a bit beyond that with a bunch of non-sense that has little if any bearing on what most people do with their cars.......and that's daily drive them.

I think we are all aware of the engineering and mechanical principles, they really don't mean squat in a DD at the minor levels he's pointing out. Yes, unsprung weight is important in the right application/situation, yes lighter brakes are important in the right application/situation, etc, etc, etc. But to blare that from a loudspeaker and apply it to each every situation and circumstance inferring that it has to be that way, is a bit short sighted and over the top and makes him look a bit silly when debating in some circumstances and real life situations.

I expected nothing less....

Been working on VW group cars in spare time & owning for 23yrs....& have driven many different versions inc R32, GTi, Audi RS , S3 etc...some of which the owners have allowed me to drive fast down my back roads to teach them advanced driving skills (I was taught by a rally test driver for a few main teams, & a few of my mates are rally drivers or ex)...

Our back roads here are way more narrow, twisty etc than yours..go look up A939...2hrs end to end...three very steep descents & ascents way harder on cars brakes than "light track use".

Loads of power & fast top speed count for nothing, responsiveness & driver skill count...138bhp cough (155bhp...based on others dyno maps) light weight nose, with 225mm wide decent tyres, a CCS front ARB (factory fit), -15mm factory sports suspension, multilink rear & a half decent driver can get down these roads very quickly....even a few mates in faster cars have difficulty in keeping up through the twisty bits..straights different matter...

light weight nose, very good brakes & good suspension excel......the bigger the engine the heavier, the more nose weight, the worst it is on the twisty sections due to pendulum effect...only time the bigger engines excel is on the straights due to more power

Plenty of cars at cheaper prices than the GTI PP with 4 pot brakes on smaller than 340mm discs sold in this country.....hell even VAG did it with the Seat Cupra R, 312mm discs & 4pot brembos....fantastic set up...even the old mk4 R32 had 2pots...

the GTI & PP are good cars, but the PP is not what I call "performance"....& I would not recommend the PP extra ££ for the bits ....that money is better spend on driver training...

If you still want performance after improving your skill, fit better tyres with lighter alloys, fit a nice 312mm 4 pot set up & wavetrak...then have a lighter car & better braking & better handling...& on our roads you do need it with that power.....

more power needs more control but do it without adding more weight, as adding more weight then needs more control...

 

[heiney9]

All in your opinion Dave. You forgot that part.

We are talking about 2 specific cars the std GTi and P/P GTi, not cars in general. You keep opening the discussion up wider and wider, taking it farther off course to justify your position. I am not saying any of that is wrong in theory. But you are so far beyond the scope of the original question, all in a quest to get the last word and prove you are 100% defacto correct, situation and circumstance be damned. It's called deflecting.

I am saying that in this question where the two cars are the same except one has and LSD and bigger brakes the latter seems to be the faster, more stable car in spirited driving. Straight line, the same, but who cares about straight line. You don't buy a GTi for straight line performance.

You're a numbers guy 100%, how did the P/P beat the std Gti around the 'Ring if it's an overweight pig?

Certainly you can take a stock 3 door GTi, strip it, put light weight calipers/rotors, better pads, Wavtrac, better rubber, lighter rims and it would outperform the GTi P/P. But that's not even remotely the question and I don't think anyone here would dispute that, even if the cars in this example never ran against one another. Would it be as good a DD, maybe, but probably not. On the track, I'd bet the Stig could get better lap times with the quasi lightened 3-door GTi outfitted as above vs. the stock P/P. It wouldn't be jaw dropping but I'd expect a couple seconds maybe 3.

 

[Shane_Anigans]

a 3dr GTI manual will be faster than a 5dr GTI PP DSG, due to 81kg less weight on real roads the ring ain't a real road...& some of the turns are way too sharp for real roads...carousel, in real life?..yeah right...

& the FDL if it has a error 404 moment from the ABS etc will cut out...

& just for good measure the TCR car which uses the FDL have an adjustable preload setting with a correct value loading like an LSD...something which is supposed to be the downside of a LSD.....the road cars don't have this so your FDL will cook if you use it this way.

Like I say LSD is way more reliable in the long term & lighter & has less drivetrain losses/drag

Who said anything about the 'Ring? Pick a circuit, or make your own, and so long as it has corners, the PP will be faster.

 

[heiney9]

Who said anything about the 'Ring? Pick a circuit, or make your own, and so long as it has corners, the PP will be faster.

I did, since I was so impressed to see the P/P GTi was 6 seconds faster around the "Ring compared to the std GTi

 

[golfdave]

All in your opinion Dave. You forgot that part.

The figures, & PDFs on FLD etc, info on the weights, etc are all other engineers facts, not my opinions,

We are talking about 2 specific cars the std GTi and P/P GTi, not cars in general. You keep opening the discussion up wider and wider, taking it farther off course to justify your position.

Other people where quoting me & answering by mentioning "race cars" & various other brand cars...all I did was answer their original posts...so don't blame me...

I am not saying any of that is wrong in theory. But you are so far beyond the scope of the original question, all in a quest to get the last word and prove you are 100% defacto correct, situation and circumstance be damned. It's called deflecting.

Nope its called arguing a point from every direction, never been to a debating society then??...


I am saying that in this question where the two cars are the same except one has and LSD and bigger brakes the latter seems to be the faster, more stable car in spirited driving. Straight line, the same, but who cares about straight line. You don't buy a GTi for straight line performance.

Agreed, but there is a 81kg weight variance between the specs of GTI 3dr manual & GTI PP 5dr DSG & I doubt the heavier car with the FDL & 340mm brakes will be that much faster for the money spent on it...


You're a numbers guy 100%, how did the P/P beat the std Gti around the 'Ring if it's an overweight pig?

I haven't found the those times everyone keeps stating, as the listings for ring state the car type eg GTI & GTI PP but not the door number or gearbox type, or even if the tyres & driver were the same...


Certainly you can take a stock 3 door GTi, strip it, put light weight calipers/rotors, better pads, Wavtrac, better rubber, lighter rims and it would outperform the GTi P/P.

No need to strip it out which is why I did not mention it, reduce the rotating wheel/brake mass/weight, instant faster acceleration...wavetrak & tyres for better traction etc etc..

But that's not even remotely the question and I don't think anyone here would dispute that, even if the cars in this example never ran against one another. Would it be as good a DD, maybe, but probably not. On the track, I'd bet the Stig could get better lap times with the quasi lightened 3-door GTi outfitted as above vs. the stock P/P. It wouldn't be jaw dropping but I'd expect a couple seconds maybe 3.

It'd be more than that, seen the ring time for CCS?.

Compare that to the same door & gearbox as a GTI PP...as the CCS is a GTI PP, but with 2kg lighter front discs (same size), reduced body weight, the same FDL, & slight suspension geometry tweeks...& a big spoiler...

.

Answers in bold...

Anyway VW messed up with the CCS, those two piece floating disc can't stand light track work....they overheat.

Already reports from regular track uses (who do cool down laps etc) & the same from Audi users with the same discs...

Basically they have directional internal vanes...BUT both sides are from the same blank...& NOT "handed"...

So one is blowing the correct way & is cool, the other is "sucking" & therefore gets hot.....

Way to go VW....idiots...

again another example of marketing hype/cost cutting winning over racing mechanic basics...