Intercooler aftermarket upgrade... will it add more lag?

[Reggie Enchilada]

The stock intercoolers on the R's and GTI's are basically maxed out at stock power levels. You won't gain any power from a better intercooler, it just helps to prevent power loss due to heatsoak.

 

[nikhsub1]

The stock intercoolers on the R's and GTI's are basically maxed out at stock power levels. You won't gain any power from a better intercooler, it just helps to prevent power loss due to heatsoak.

Wrong. If a stock IC in the car dynos at 300hp and the same car with an aftermarket IC dynos at 320hp the car gained 20HP.

 

[Chowderhead72]

I particularly like the IE intercooler because of its design, and because it comes with new hoses. If you were really worried about size effecting you, the unitronic is smaller, but I feel that is more sized for an IS20, not the IS38. (APR/IE).

The Wagner comes with new 3" hoses as well.

 

[Reggie Enchilada]

Wrong. If a stock IC in the car dynos at 300hp and the same car with an aftermarket IC dynos at 320hp the car gained 20HP.

Nope, all that proves is that the car didn't lose 20hp to heatsoak. Look at the test results from the different manufacturers and you'll find that the differences between IAT's and dyno results between aftermarket intercoolers and stock ones for our cars comes down to heatsoak.

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/p...n3_mqb_intercooler_gti_vs_r_vs_apr_6pulls.png

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/p..._mqb_intercooler_gti_vs_r_vs_apr_run_6_cw.png

https://www.getunitronic.com//hardw...intercooler_data_sheet_celcius_b_oem_ic_2.jpg

https://www.getunitronic.com//hardw...intercooler_data_sheet_celcius_b_uni_ic_1.jpg

https://www.getunitronic.com//hardw...er_data_sheet_celcius_oem_ic_20secpulls_4.jpg

https://www.getunitronic.com//hardw...er_data_sheet_celcius_20secpulls_uni_ic_5.jpg

There is a reason that manufacturers do not advertise HP gains for their intercoolers. Instead they show that their intercoolers prevent power loss due to heatsoak.

 

[nikhsub1]

Nope, all that proves is that the car didn't lose 20hp to heatsoak. Look at the test results from the different manufacturers and you'll find that the differences between IAT's and dyno results between aftermarket intercoolers and stock ones for our cars comes down to heatsoak.

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/p...n3_mqb_intercooler_gti_vs_r_vs_apr_6pulls.png

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/p..._mqb_intercooler_gti_vs_r_vs_apr_run_6_cw.png

https://www.getunitronic.com//hardw...intercooler_data_sheet_celcius_b_oem_ic_2.jpg

https://www.getunitronic.com//hardw...intercooler_data_sheet_celcius_b_uni_ic_1.jpg

https://www.getunitronic.com//hardw...er_data_sheet_celcius_oem_ic_20secpulls_4.jpg

https://www.getunitronic.com//hardw...er_data_sheet_celcius_20secpulls_uni_ic_5.jpg

There is a reason that manufacturers do not advertise HP gains for their intercoolers. Instead they show that their intercoolers prevent power loss due to heatsoak.

Again you are wrong. The reason why they don't show HP gain is because it is a moving target - it depends on temps, mods, power etc. You can't say that intercooler x will provide y horsepower because it won't be consistent. What can and has been done are dynos of the same car with the only change being the intercooler and that same car making more power with the aftermarket intercooler. However, that same car would get different numbers on a different day if the temps were different.

APR's ECU upgrade even mentions that with their intercooler and intake you will make more power than without them... "To get more power, the vehicle can be outfitted with an upgraded intake, intercooler..." APR's dyno charts for their ECU tunes are WITH APR's intercooler and state as such - without them you won't make the advertised power. Anyway, your contention that it is just less loss is horseshit. Less pressure drop would allow for HP gains alone which have nothing to do with temperature.

 

[Cruiser]

Sharing of opinions and perspectives is good.
Vulgar language us not good for sharing

 

[Reggie Enchilada]

You don't need to get so worked up over this. Not trying to start an argument here, just throwing out my $.02. We are basically talking about semantics at this point.


An aftermarket IC isn't going to magically give you more power. All it does is help with making more power. Just like how an upgraded intake makes the engine more efficient which results in more power being produced by the engine.


The car's ECU doesn't know that the IC has been changed. However, it can see the benefits from the upgraded IC.


An IC's job is to cool the charge air, which results in the charge air being denser. Dense air contains more oxygen than non-dense air. Therefore, dense air is able to react with more fuel than non-dense air can.


This is why forced induction engines make more power when ambient temps are colder. There is more oxygen available in the cold air, which means more combustion is possible.


Taken from the following site: https://www.getunitronic.com/news/unitronic-intercooler-upgrade-kit-for-1-8-and-2-0-tsi-gen3-mqb

Unitronic's bar and plate intercooler core is constructed of T5052 Aluminum featuring a unique staggered and louvered fin configuration to maximize efficiency, significantly reducing charge air temperatures allowing for cooler, more dense air to be ingested by the engine; ultimately resulting in an increase in engine performance. When intake air temperatures reach a specific threshold, the engine control unit begins to compensate to account for the air temperature, resulting in a decrease in performance. Unitronic's core has 64% more volume than stock measuring 23.5” x 2” x 16.5”, allowing for a greater volume of air to exchange heat, which, combined with a proper fin configuration, allows for maximum efficiency and reduction in heat-soak thresholds without producing a significant pressure drop.


Notice where it says "When intake air temperatures reach a specific threshold, the engine control unit begins to compensate to account for the air temperature, resulting in a decrease in performance."


Also, since cold charge air is more dense, the turbo will have to work less to make the same amount of boost. This helps to increase the engine's efficiency.


The point that I am trying to make with all of this is that the IC isn't what makes more power. The engine is making more power because of the benefits of the upgraded IC. The ECU sees that the charge air is colder and denser, and is able to safely inject more fuel and adjust timing because of that. The intercooler is helping the engine to be more efficient, which in turn, allows the engine to make more power, and be consistent about it.

 

[geebob]

"When intake air temperatures reach a specific threshold, the engine control unit begins to compensate to account for the air temperature, resulting in a decrease in performance."

That's the thing right there, but no one ever gets it. On a modern spec factory turbo car, performance tuning is a matter of winding around the forest of safe-guards put in place to prevent the factory aggressiveness in ignition and fuel tuning from doing damage.

Tuning for gas mileage and tuning for power are very similar - the way manufacturers get such high specific outputs from modern engines is that they have those draconian nannies waiting to jump in.

If you had access to the ecu, you could just back them all off, but that would be dumb, so, since charge air temp is one of the critical elements, doing a better job of cooling it avoids the nannies. Plus of course, reducing stress on the turbo, which gives you some options for tuning (say, more power and reduced stress at the same time.)

 

[nikhsub1]

An aftermarket IC isn't going to magically give you more power.

Yes, it will. That's like saying an aftermarket turbo back exhaust won't magically give you more power... a good intercooler will do 2 things, lower charge temps and lower pressure drop - both of which will help the motor create more power.

Going by your theory why bother even using an intercooler?

 

[Swoope]

Yes, it will. That's like saying an aftermarket turbo back exhaust won't magically give you more power... a good intercooler will do 2 things, lower charge temps and lower pressure drop - both of which will help the motor create more power.

Going by your theory why bother even using an intercooler?

it keeps you from loosing power more than it gains you power..

it should be the first mod on the car, even if you are not going to tune.

that is just my opinion, i could be wrong.. but the twincooler was the first mod i did. and was worth it.

beers

 

[Aussie R]

I think it's confusing for some as most research you do normally just speaks about preventing losses due to heat soak and not HP gain.

But like others have said with better designed IC with less pressure drop, combining with Cooler charge air the engine will make more power as can have more fuel and timing in tune. I've seen tests where APR IC gained 12WHP and custom tuner in U.K. Gains 20hp on tunes over stage 2 (would be because can add more, fuelling/timing etc to match the cooler temps.

I think gains bigger custom tuned to match having the IC but seems stage 2 cars do make around 10-15hp more. I don't think HP gain the main reason to change though as everyone would agree hard driven cars in hot climates will suffer heat soak so in those conditions car would be way stronger.

My person thoughts are tacked car IC a must, stage 1/2 tuned cars in hot climate driven hard again a must. Cooler climate, DD cars not really suffereing heat soak, not needed but if you can afford it and especially install yourself then it's definitely a positive. I'm no expert by any means. Just my 2c

 

[greggles]

An aftermarket IC isn't going to magically give you more power.

The reduction in pressure drop can move a turbo into a more efficient island in its compressor map, causing a cascading effect of wonderful efficiency.

I think the terminology here is what is causing the debate.

An intercooler doesn't add power. It "recovers" power that was loss due to pressure drop and high boost temps.

Technically most of the mods we do to the car, outside of a tune, recover power that was lost due a particular design. In that aspect, both a downpipe and an intercooler are similar. Both recover power that was lost due to a factory design.

If you want actual back to back graphs, IE did a stock R vs IE intercooler dyno and compared the runs back to back. +35/35 (max gains not peak)

And you can see why (primary reason)

It's easy to see, even at your very first pull, just how much power an aftermarket intercooler can "recover" for the vehicle. Even comparing aftermarket run 4 vs a stock run 1, is nearly a 30C (86F) difference in boost charge temps. These upgrades are a no brainer for the car. As time goes on, I imagine we'll see the forum community move to intercoolers as part of the early upgrades for the vehicle.

 

[nikhsub1]

You guys and your 'less loss' and 'recovers power' are ridiculous By this statement, NOTHING adds power except a tune. An exhaust 'recovers power'. A worked head 'recovers power'. An intake 'recovers power'. A bigger turbo 'recovers power'.

When you dyno a car and one part helps the engine MAKE more power, why call it anything else? It increases efficiency thereby allowing the motor to create more power, not lose less power.

 

[yo_marc]

I always thought pressure drop was dependent on incoming air temp, how efficiently the cooler drops that temp (CFM and thermally), and what the post-intercooler temp is.

It sounds like what is being discussed here is a static pressure-drop?

Ie: 150*F air into the intercooler -- assume it flows exactly the same as stock, but cools better -- 90*F vs 120*F out, stock -- you're going to experience more pressure drop simply due to the increased air temp reduction.

 

[nikhsub1]

I always thought pressure drop was dependent on incoming air temp, how efficiently the cooler drops that temp (CFM and thermally), and what the post-intercooler temp is.

It sounds like what is being discussed here is a static pressure-drop?

Ie: 150*F air into the intercooler -- assume it flows exactly the same as stock, but cools better -- 90*F vs 120*F out, stock -- you're going to experience more pressure drop simply due to the increased air temp reduction.

No. Pressure drop can be minutely affected by temps, but not really. Think of it this way - you are pushing 20PSI into the IC, you measure the PSI coming out of the IC, the difference is the pressure drop. This is really independent of temps as I mentioned but different temps can change the density of the air.

Pressure drop is again a moving target, it isn't a fixed value as PD is dependent on flow - the more air you try to shove through, the more resistance you will get. The pressure drop at 100PSI will be much more than at 20PSI.

I used to test liquid cooling water blocks - among other characteristics of testing is pressure drop. Nevermind that the below graphic is for water and water blocks, the concept is the same. As the flow increases, so does the PD for each block, obviously the freest flowing block exhibits the least amount of PD. Virtually all aftermarket ICs offer decreased PD as compared to the OEM unit.