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Intercooler aftermarket upgrade... will it add more lag?

R

Reggie Enchilada

Autocross Newbie
Location
nowhere
Car(s)
yes
Yup, its pretty much just differences in the terminology.

Greggles explained it a little better than I did. That was a well written explanation.
 
G

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
Location
USA
Car(s)
MK 6 GolfR
Just an opinion for those who are modding and discussing whether parts like an IC actually "make" power or just "allow" you to take advantage of your tune.

A tune is what commands the power and its limits are fixed but the ECU will automatically degrade those limits if necessary to protect the motor. The hardware mods you install like an IC enable you to deliver on those commands. The idea is to be able to meet the demands of your tune. All power only comes from fuel nothing else. To burn that fuel optimally requires a certain amount of air and a supporting environment (temps).

No amount of modding hardware is going to provide more than the maximum limits of fueling programmed in to your tune if you have already achieved max fueling and max air flow in the proper supporting environment (temps). So to that end an IC does nothing directly to "make" power but it does help provide better flow and cooler temps to create that supporting environment that allows for full fuel and the max timing requested by the tune.

Assuming you have the fueling capabilities taken care of (hpfp,lpfp,FPRV etc) you are also concerned about overall flow of air and getting it as cool as possible (supporting environment). Flow and heat are the problems we seek to solve with items like an aftermarket IC. I personally found the stock IC on a MKV gti to be a choke point for overall air flow with a larger turbo. Of course the larger (in my case APR) intercooler provided more cooling as well.

So bottomline you won't make more power than you are tuned for. You can only make more power by adding more fuel and advancing timing (more tuning). The fact that someone sees a power increase after adding an IC means that the supporting environment has been improved so we can see better results from the same tune (you just were not reaching max fueling and timing - ECU pulls back if environment is too hot or lean). If the temps are too high or the oxygen is less than needed you will see a reduction in fuel and timing below the max setting of the tune. So adding an IC and cooling things off allows you to "recover" power lost to poor air flow and temps that were too high (ECU was trimming back fuel and timing).

Also an air to air intercooler effectivness is of course limited by ambient air temps. It can only do so much, so.. next step is adding water/meth to that bigger IC for those wanting even more aggressive tuning than just an air to air intercooler can support by itself. I use both.
 
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nikhsub1

nikhsub1

What?
Location
Los Angeles
So, When a stage 2 car makes 350hp with an aftermarket intercooler and 330hp with an OEM intercooler the car with 350HP makes the same amount of power as the car with the OEM intercooler? See how dumb that sounds? The intercooler provided a 20HP advantage.
 
G

gti330ex

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Chicagoland
GIACUser said:
Just an opinion for those who are modding and discussing whether parts like an IC actually "make" power or just "allow" you to take advantage of your tune.

A tune is what commands the power and its limits are fixed but the ECU will automatically degrade those limits if necessary to protect the motor. The hardware mods you install like an IC enable you to deliver on those commands. The idea is to be able to meet the demands of your tune. All power only comes from fuel nothing else. To burn that fuel optimally requires a certain amount of air and a supporting environment (temps).

No amount of modding hardware is going to provide more than the maximum limits of fueling programmed in to your tune if you have already achieved max fueling and max air flow in the proper supporting environment (temps). So to that end an IC does nothing directly to "make" power but it does help provide better flow and cooler temps to create that supporting environment that allows for full fuel and the max timing requested by the tune.

Assuming you have the fueling capabilities taken care of (hpfp,lpfp,FPRV etc) you are also concerned about overall flow of air and getting it as cool as possible (supporting environment). Flow and heat are the problems we seek to solve with items like an aftermarket IC. I personally found the stock IC on a MKV gti to be a choke point for overall air flow with a larger turbo. Of course the larger (in my case APR) intercooler provided more cooling as well.

So bottomline you won't make more power than you are tuned for. You can only make more power by adding more fuel and advancing timing (more tuning). The fact that someone sees a power increase after adding an IC means that the supporting environment has been improved so we can see better results from the same tune (you just were not reaching max fueling and timing - ECU pulls back if environment is too hot or lean). If the temps are too high or the oxygen is less than needed you will see a reduction in fuel and timing below the max setting of the tune. So adding an IC and cooling things off allows you to "recover" power lost to poor air flow and temps that were too high (ECU was trimming back fuel and timing).

Also an air to air intercooler effectivness is of course limited by ambient air temps. It can only do so much, so.. next step is adding water/meth to that bigger IC for those wanting even more aggressive tuning than just an air to air intercooler can support by itself. I use both.
Click to expand...

This is how i see the benefits of an intercooler. Well explained!

In short - in an ideal environment, a stock car will not benefit from an aftermarket intercooler. Same could be said with a tuned car in ideal conditions (cold .. cold temps), aftermarket intercooler will not provide power gains over a stock unit if doing and comparing ONLY one pull.

PS.. Intercooler was my 2nd upgrade after flashing my stage1 mk6 gti (ended up with stage2). That was my introduction to all this madness, so i'm no expert, but that was the most logical move on my part in order to conserve the full potential of my tune bec the whole turbo/heat soak drove me mad.
 
G

greggles

Drag Race Newbie
Location
usa
Car(s)
GTI
aftermarket intercooler will not provide power gains over a stock unit if doing and comparing ONLY one pull.
Click to expand...

Most of the data we have across the three manufacturers shows the aftermarket solutions beating the stock intercooler within the first thousands rpm's of the very first run. The stock intercooler heats up fast.

Starting at the same ambient temp.

By the end of run 1 (first run, not heatsoaked before hand, same starting boost temps)

APR 40C
Stock R 67C (IS38)

Unitronic 25C
Stock GTI 45C (IS20)

IE 35C
Stock R 68C (IS38)

Wagner 20.7C
Stock R (31.5C)

The wagner shows the lowest increases on the stock R, but it is a bit confusing how they are testing exactly.

Stock cars, no tunes.
 
G

GIACUser

Master Wallet Mechanic
Location
USA
Car(s)
MK 6 GolfR
nik said:
So, When a stage 2 car makes 350hp with an aftermarket intercooler and 330hp with an OEM intercooler the car with 350HP makes the same amount of power as the car with the OEM intercooler? See how dumb that sounds? The intercooler provided a 20HP advantage.
Click to expand...

It is not dumb and am not sure that we all really aren't all on the same page sort of.

I don't think anybody said that 350hp = 330hp and of course it does not. At issue really is the understanding of the realationship between the tune and the associated hardware. For instance this stage 2 tune you mention will be more aggressive and when it operates at its full potential will produce x amount of power based on its fueling (more fueling). Now it also requires more air to properly burn that increased amount of fuel (air/fuel ratio). With a forced induction system we just force more air in (increase boost). The downside of doing that is heat. Compressing the air more heats it up even more, possibly more than the stock IC can cool so you see a reduction in power. Add in the proper IC we now see more power because the heat problem was dealt with and the ECU doesn't have to subtract timing from the original settings of the tune to protect the motor from knock. The bigger IC doesn't really produce any power it just enables it when the ECU has otherwise had to reduce power by pulling back timing to protect the motor from knock. By doing some simple logging you can watch this occur real time.

.
 
G

Geomets

Ready to race!
Location
South-Eastern Europe
Car(s)
Golf mk7 GTI
nik said:
you're wrong, and obtuse. Bad combo.
Click to expand...

Come on now guys, don't be rude to each other. Actualy you are both right! The ICs are known for enabling the turbocharged engines to releasing their potential (less heat soak). On the other hand, they are improving the airflow. Can the engine's power be increased by 20hp from the better airflow? No way, BUT it can be increased by 20hp, above a certain ambient temperature compared to the same engine in the same conditions equipped with the stock IC, because it allows the engine to run cooler AND the air to flow through it freer.
 
R

Reggie Enchilada

Autocross Newbie
Location
nowhere
Car(s)
yes
Exactly, things like IC's, intakes, exhausts, lightweight pulleys, and lightweight flywheels don't produce any power. Instead, they enable the engine to run more efficiently.

For example, if you dyno a car with the stock crank pulley and get a result of 300HP, then you swap a lightweight crank pulley and dyno it with a result of 305HP, you didn't gain 5HP. All that shows is that you no longer lost 5HP to parasitic drag.

The engine produced 305HP in both situations, the difference being that the engine wasted less energy on spinning the lighter pulley, compared to the heavier one. Because of that, the energy that was not lost was able to be transferred to the wheels.
 
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