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360hp kid hauler gets a long-awaited front sway bar upgrade... (detailed review & FSB database inside)

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
Camber mounts arrived today in a package small enough for the Unibomber to exploit… 😏👌 💣

I now have no further excuses not to move forward with the install this week (of the FSB and camber mounts)

Touch-up alignment after to reset the toe. 🏎
 

00Zero

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Pittsburgh, Pa
Camber mounts arrived today in a package small enough for the Unibomber to exploit… 😏👌 💣

I now have no further excuses not to move forward with the install this week (of the FSB and camber mounts)

Touch-up alignment after to reset the toe. 🏎

Awesome Info all around, As someone only looking to upgrade their daily I look forward to your thoughts on the DD'abilty as well as the on-track review, of course.
 

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
I strongly advise against anyone installing the EuroSport camber mounts themselves, unless they have lots of time, energy, and drill bits to burn through.

This install was about as terrible as the way our government pulled out of Afghanistan… 👀 🤦‍♂️ 🥵

The supplied drillbit was not up to the task. It may as well have been made of brass or some other soft metal.

Even with decent coated and hardened drillbits, a primary set and a spare set, it still took copious time and lots of frustration to extract the old metal centerpieces. Pretty sure they are made of adamantium…

Spend the extra 200 and purchase new EuroSport mounts pre-assembled. You will be so much happier in the long run, and the install will take about 1/3 the amount of time.

Now pause to look at that beautiful, beefy 28mm front swaybar on the parts table. It’s delicious… 😋 🤤
 

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GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
4/14-4/15: Front Sway Bar Install - Write-Up, Notes & Anecdotes

FSB Cliff's Notes: It effing works, and you probably need one if you like to drive fast and exploit corners.

1) Anyone telling you "a RSB is all you need, brah" has never driven a car (aggressively) with both the front & rear upgraded. Ignore them, their backwards hats, and their fruity vape juice...


2) TireRack's special promos, sales and clearances made this mod possible. New, it's a $466 bar.

3) Comparable 28-29mm bars can be had for ~$315-350 (with bushings & hardware) from APR, ST, aFe, and many others if you search.

4) For me, 28mm was the minimum thickness to justify the cost and labor of this upgrade. Stock is 24mm on both the GTI & Golf R.


FSB Install - Rundown & Details

I had a very patient and loyal friend come help me with the FSB install since [initially] I did not trust myself to align the cradle solo.

Getting everything else lined up while raising the cradle into position is the only real challenge.

Take your time, go slow. Just like you were told in that backseat on prom night.

Overall the install was extremely smooth for a VW suspension deal.


Aligning the cradle ...was actually painless and event-free. Steps outlined below:

1) Using your floor jack, carefully raise the subframe into position, being mindful of the wires and FSB, and especially the left front C/V axle. The left front cradle mount can damage it if you aren't careful.

This is where having a helper is most beneficial: it's a second set of eyes to spot you when something like this getting raised and lowered.

2) Use a flashlight to look directly up into the holes and see where the bolt hole is relative to the subframe material. Shift or rotate the cradle as needed.

3) Install all 4 new bolts by hand, and leave them 2-3 turns loose at the top. This will hold the cradle supported and you can slide it in any direction you need to align it.

4) Hand-tighten (with an 18mm deep socket and 1/2" drive ratchet) the 4 main cradle bolts one at a time.

5) Go back through and check your work, using the witness market from all the dirt and grime that accumulated around where the subframe was previously.

6) Perform final torque after verifying everything else is routed correctly and properly secured in the subframe


Done.


PDF INSTRUCTIONS: We used the instructions supplied by the 034 Motorsports PDF. It was like following a recipe to make a nice dinner.

I highly recommend it here: https://www.034motorsport.com/docs/...t-sway-bar-install-guide-diy-034-402-1009.pdf

Using that PDF will make this job far less scary to anyone nervous about dropping the cradle and doing the swaybar.

But DO reference the OE torque specs with all installs, don't just trust the aftermarket articles.


034’s method is pretty trick because it allows you to keep the lower control arms connected to the sub frame:

-The subframe drops down about 12 - 14 inches in the rear, 6-10" in the front, and hangs supported by the struts.
-It does not weigh much, and the steering rack is allowed to simply hover.
-The old FSB is removed from the rear location of the subframe. New is installed the same way


Steering Rack - I used & recommend a large, rubber bungee to support the weight of the steering rack, to avoid unwanted stress on the steering shaft.

The bungee is probably 18” long, available in a bulk pack of 6-12 @ your local China Freight. It went under the heaviest part of the rack (like a hammock), and the hooks attached to a small metal bracket on the back of the engine. This method worked out perfectly, and allowed us more room for activities.👌


Anyway, the outcome of this install is 110% worth the time and effort


Previous Chassis Setup:

-Whiteline front LCAs w/poly bushings
-H&R OE Sport Springs
-Stock dampers ( I know, shut it)
-ARP 25.4mm RSB
-Moog HD end links all around.
-18x8.5 lightweight wheels, 245/40 Michelin PS4S rubber

Only 2 suspension changes:

-EuroSport camber mounts; H&R 28mm FSB


FSB Recap
Each and every suspension, wheel & tire upgrade has made a palpable improvement to the car’s stability and handling dynamics.

Like many have reported from the RSB modification, the car felt way better with addition of the rear bar, but it was still lacking body control in fast sweepers at high speeds, or even just in low-speed corners.

The weakness could be felt when turning a hard right 90* at an intersection, or going quickly across it in left-handed turns.

The front end did not feel properly supported.

Coilovers with firmer spring rates would resolve this with immediacy, but they're likely beyond my means this year.


FSB Post-Repair Test Drive

I cannot say enough good things about how balanced the car feels now:

-There is no lateral pitch and roll like there was before with the stock FSB.

-This is the first time I don’t have to be nervous or afraid when setting the car up into corners.



Yes, the camber mounts probably help.

But the biggest improvement I’m referring to is the newfound body control from the FSB, during steering inputs and load changes that would normally roll the front end around.

The included photos aren’t spectacular, but they still show you what was involved.

And the new bar, with its purple/indigo powder coat that matches my H&R springs, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy…like your second stiff drink at a party. 😎 🍺


I highly endorse this upgrade if you’re sticking with standard/drop springs and some type of strut upgrade, but are not moving to coilovers.

The coilover crowd enjoys stiffer springs and dampers that typically do a far better job controlling body roll (when properly calibrated) than stock style springs/struts.

For those folks, I would typically advise to do the FSB last, and only if they are still unhappy with the front end control.


Hit the like button if this post or thread helps you on your mod journey, and your fundamentals on chassis tuning. ✌️ 🍻

See you in the twisties! 🏎
 

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Last edited:

MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
I just gotta say.
I don't know how you have the patience to write so much. 🤣

I still read it and the way you write, it's interesting, but damn if I would've gotten through writing the 2nd sentence and stopped.
 

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
I just gotta say.
I don't know how you have the patience to write so much. 🤣

I still read it and the way you write, it's interesting, but damn if I would've gotten through writing the 2nd sentence and stopped.
You’re not wrong.

I was severely sleep deprived when I put that write-up together, I only intended to write a few sentences. You see how that spiraled out of control… 👀 😝

1681652501899.gif


I’ll go back through, polish it up and trim the fat to make it more concise. Because you’re right, it could be condensed. I need an editor, honestly.

The thing about this upgrade is that so many people devalue it, or are afraid of the labor, and I wanted to educate the community better. 🤗

1681652534627.jpeg

Now someone please sell me some good coilovers or high quality dampers… 🙏
 

manu97

Autocross Champion
Location
Chicago
Car(s)
MK7 R
You’re not wrong.

I was severely sleep deprived when I put that write-up together, I only intended to write a few sentences. You see how that spiraled out of control… 👀 😝

View attachment 278528

I’ll go back through, polish it up and trim the fat to make it more concise. Because you’re right, it could be condensed. I need an editor, honestly.

The thing about this upgrade is that so many people devalue it, or are afraid of the labor, and I wanted to educate the community better. 🤗

View attachment 278529
Now someone please sell me some good coilovers or high quality dampers… 🙏

I got some, but they’ve been through a Chicago winter. ST XTA, loved them, shoot me a PM and we can work something out?
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Front sways. They work. End.
 

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG

Nitro

New member
Location
Vancouver
Car(s)
2016 Golf R
What the geologist said. 👌 🧫 🧬 🪨
Did the Euroaport mounts add NVH? I am going KW v3 in My Golf R in a few weeks. Its just a daily driver and gets no track time. I am putting a rear sway bar in and debating the front. For me the decision is not the cost to install the FSB. Its how much compromise on daily ride quality.
 

manu97

Autocross Champion
Location
Chicago
Car(s)
MK7 R
Did the Euroaport mounts add NVH? I am going KW v3 in My Golf R in a few weeks. Its just a daily driver and gets no track time. I am putting a rear sway bar in and debating the front. For me the decision is not the cost to install the FSB. Its how much compromise on daily ride quality.
Would be interested in how you feel about the V3s - but for me, adding coilovers added significantly more NVH than the FSB (granted, my coilovers on the GTI had camber plates/pillowball tops, so that is on the higher side of NVH).
 

Nitro

New member
Location
Vancouver
Car(s)
2016 Golf R
Would be interested in how you feel about the V3s - but for me, adding coilovers added significantly more NVH than the FSB (granted, my coilovers on the GTI had camber plates/pillowball tops, so that is on the higher side of NVH).
I will post once I have them installed. I think you are correct on the camber plates. Its the reason I am not doing them in a daily driver. It should still be a nice improvement over stock suspension on springs.
 

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
Did the Euroaport mounts add NVH? I am going KW v3 in My Golf R in a few weeks. Its just a daily driver and gets no track time. I am putting a rear sway bar in and debating the front. For me the decision is not the cost to install the FSB. Its how much compromise on daily ride quality.
Nitro, zero changes so far. The EuroSports (on my particular car and combination) are completely seamless, but I also have not driven on them enough yet due to bad weather.

I actually went into it knowing that there was a chance I would experience some clunking noises or some kind of changes. I installed mine into the factory VW/SACHS strut mounts; both my rubber mounts and my strut bearings were still in very good condition at 42k.

Car feels exactly like it did before as far as impacts and ride quality. But no unusual clunks or loose sensations.

i do wish I could’ve gotten more chamber out of these mounts, but I will probably go back and slot the holes in my strut tops to get another half degree safely.

This method is not recommended for the average DIY person. It requires a lot of attention to detail, and before and after measurements, but I’m a shop owner and I’m definitely cut out for it. And the cost is free.

I’m trying to get the 245 tires to tuck better on compression and in hard corners. I believe this will necessitate -2.2 to -2.5° total camber upfront.

I would also discourage most people from doing this install themselves (EuroSports), as the drilling required was very brutal and time-consuming. You need to spend another $30-$40 in high-quality stepped drill bits to properly do the EuroSport install. The bit ES includes is way too soft (for how hard and dense the metal collars are on these factory mounts).

When you factor in that additional cost, and the value of your time, it makes the most sense to save up some extra money, and purchase a set of mounts already assembled. Whether it is the EuroSport version, or the 034 dynamic camber mounts, which I really wanted to try, but did not have $400 to cover.

This recommendation is assuming you‘re retaining some type of “strut & Spring“ or coil over combo that retains the stock strut mount design, instead of a more aggressive pillow ball mount.

if you are seriously considering coil overs, you need to investigate the kit you’re after, because half the kits on the market already include some type of solid mount with adjustable camber up top.

Let me know if this all makes sense in writing, and if any of it helps your mod journey. 👌 🔧
 

krs

Autocross Champion
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Car(s)
MKVIIS R
Nitro, zero changes so far. The EuroSports (on my particular car and combination) are completely seamless, but I also have not driven on them enough yet due to bad weather.

I actually went into it knowing that there was a chance I would experience some clunking noises or some kind of changes. I installed mine into the factory VW/SACHS strut mounts; both my rubber mounts and my strut bearings were still in very good condition at 42k.

Car feels exactly like it did before as far as impacts and ride quality. But no unusual clunks or loose sensations.

i do wish I could’ve gotten more chamber out of these mounts, but I will probably go back and slot the holes in my strut tops to get another half degree safely.

This method is not recommended for the average DIY person. It requires a lot of attention to detail, and before and after measurements, but I’m a shop owner and I’m definitely cut out for it. And the cost is free.

I’m trying to get the 245 tires to tuck better on compression and in hard corners. I believe this will necessitate -2.2 to -2.5° total camber upfront.

I would also discourage most people from doing this install themselves (EuroSports), as the drilling required was very brutal and time-consuming. You need to spend another $30-$40 in high-quality stepped drill bits to properly do the EuroSport install. The bit ES includes is way too soft (for how hard and dense the metal collars are on these factory mounts).

When you factor in that additional cost, and the value of your time, it makes the most sense to save up some extra money, and purchase a set of mounts already assembled. Whether it is the EuroSport version, or the 034 dynamic camber mounts, which I really wanted to try, but did not have $400 to cover.

This recommendation is assuming you‘re retaining some type of “strut & Spring“ or coil over combo that retains the stock strut mount design, instead of a more aggressive pillow ball mount.

if you are seriously considering coil overs, you need to investigate the kit you’re after, because half the kits on the market already include some type of solid mount with adjustable camber up top.

Let me know if this all makes sense in writing, and if any of it helps your mod journey. 👌 🔧

I disagree, if a person has the skills to install coilovers, doing the EuroSport install isn’t that scary.

I’d buy the assembled kit for the easy button factor, but seriously drilling them out was simple.

With my setup of the Bilstein coils, offset bushings, and Eurosport kit, I’ve been able to net -2.5° on the camber. The Eurosport alone gave me -2.3° with zero NVH. But there’s so many variables between cars and setups…
 
Last edited:

Nitro

New member
Location
Vancouver
Car(s)
2016 Golf R
Nitro, zero changes so far. The EuroSports (on my particular car and combination) are completely seamless, but I also have not driven on them enough yet due to bad weather.

I actually went into it knowing that there was a chance I would experience some clunking noises or some kind of changes. I installed mine into the factory VW/SACHS strut mounts; both my rubber mounts and my strut bearings were still in very good condition at 42k.

Car feels exactly like it did before as far as impacts and ride quality. But no unusual clunks or loose sensations.

i do wish I could’ve gotten more chamber out of these mounts, but I will probably go back and slot the holes in my strut tops to get another half degree safely.

This method is not recommended for the average DIY person. It requires a lot of attention to detail, and before and after measurements, but I’m a shop owner and I’m definitely cut out for it. And the cost is free.

I’m trying to get the 245 tires to tuck better on compression and in hard corners. I believe this will necessitate -2.2 to -2.5° total camber upfront.

I would also discourage most people from doing this install themselves (EuroSports), as the drilling required was very brutal and time-consuming. You need to spend another $30-$40 in high-quality stepped drill bits to properly do the EuroSport install. The bit ES includes is way too soft (for how hard and dense the metal collars are on these factory mounts).

When you factor in that additional cost, and the value of your time, it makes the most sense to save up some extra money, and purchase a set of mounts already assembled. Whether it is the EuroSport version, or the 034 dynamic camber mounts, which I really wanted to try, but did not have $400 to cover.

This recommendation is assuming you‘re retaining some type of “strut & Spring“ or coil over combo that retains the stock strut mount design, instead of a more aggressive pillow ball mount.

if you are seriously considering coil overs, you need to investigate the kit you’re after, because half the kits on the market already include some type of solid mount with adjustable camber up top.

Let me know if this all makes sense in writing, and if any of it helps your mod journey. 👌 🔧
Thank you for all of the feedback. It does help on the mod journey. This forum and its members are great for that. I will be having my KW v3's installed by professionals. The v3's do not have adjustable top hats, which is why I asked about the Eurosports. I have seen feedback that they wear out quick on the track, but mine is street driven.
 
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