VWR springs ruined my stock shocks... what to choose from here?

[tigeo]

Just jumping in to give my perspective. It seems to me, that if the factory stops are designed to sit at a particular height for factory setup up, and you drop the suspension by say 25mm, the stop should be cut by that drop amount (or close to it) to allow the same room for before you hit the stop.

1/8"(3mm)-1/4"(6mm) cut from a stop that now has the body 25mm closer would do very little in my view. Everything must drop equal or you will hit the stop much sooner over the same bump as the stock set up because uncut it physically has less room to take up.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

The issue is that the stops are really springs, not "stops". Those springs are part of the suspension and factored into the spring rate and travel to give you that ramp up closer to the extent of the bump travel so you don't bottom out harshly; even linear OEM springs have a progressive portion of the curve when installed on the damper with the jounces. The lowering spring folks are taking them into account when designing the springs. If they tell you to cut them, cut them, if not, leave them. You are actually touching/"in" the stops when you lower your car wtih most coilovers/lowering springs by design and most folks don't realize this. Yes you can trim them a bit also which really just reduces the spring rate at ride height slightly and causes a more progressive ramp-up near the end of travel but I can see this reducing the bounciness a bit if you have that issue b/c you are constantly on/using the jounces that are v. progessive. This is espeically true up front where you only have about an inch and change of bump travel when lowered ~1". It's a tuning tool for sure.

Good bit:

https://hrsprings.com/technical/micro-cellular-jounce-bumper

 

[tigeo]

bump stops are not active with a static loaded Golf R with 2 passengers you have 40mm front and 20mm rear travel left, the rears will go active first with the more weight you put there used more as a travel limiter then performance tuning. A Golf fully loaded with short rear bump stops will cause the rear tire to bury into the fenders.
When my car was brand new I took measurements


FACTORY GOLF R RIDE HEIGHT
355mm F 360mm R

FRONT BUMP TRAVEL
44mm-51mm

REAR BUMP TRAVEL
19mm-25mm

FRONT HEADLIGHT SENSOR ARM
119mm-121mm

They will be active when you lower it over an inch with the common lowering springs.

 

[tigeo]

and thats why you cut them to match not to mention some dampers they weld the spring perch lower than the oem which causes bump travel lost Koni is known for this

I'm riding on mine up front on my awd Sportwagen with B8s and H&Rs and the ride is fine.

 

[DerHase]

I put a bit of effort into suspension stuff lately that applies here.

https://www.datadrivenmqb.com/suspension/rideheight

I've only bothered with the front data so far. Haven't done shit to the rear out of sheer laziness/lack of time. But this was info from my 2019 Rabbit w/ DSG:

I trimmed the bumps just to initially get the car together as I faced several setbacks that delayed everything a week to begin with. The plan will be to play with some alternative bump stops, probably some Koni or Ground control "soft strut" type bumps as I've used them in the past with good success on other cars.

The bump travel available on MY car with MY 245/40R17s allows me to "potentially" compress the shock ALL the way until it hits the top hat. In reality this is a terrible idea, so finding a bump stop that is long/soft/progressive is what I'm inclined to think will work best. I may also play around with drilling some holes in the lower half of my OEM bump stops to soften the initial hit up a bit too just because it's free and I already have them.

They're a useful tuning tool that if time is spent doing some trial and error, can be super helpful.

 

[ctrldel]

@nicholam77

Lots of great information in this thread. I am looking at the same setup as you. I have VWR springs and planning to add VWR struts too.

Could you let me know the total amount you trimmed the front and year bump stops?

 

[nicholam77]

@nicholam77

Lots of great information in this thread. I am looking at the same setup as you. I have VWR springs and planning to add VWR struts too.

Could you let me know the total amount you trimmed the front and year bump stops?

I trimmed them in a weird way (1/8" off the top of the fronts, and 1/4" off the top of the rears plus ~20mm off the bottom of the rears). So in mm, about 3-4mm off the fronts, and ~26mm off the rears total.

After driving on them like this for awhile, I still have complaints. I still think the rears are overly harsh on bumps. I think I am going to trim them more and remove the white plastic ring.

Seeing @DerHase chart and video, I wish I had trimmed the fronts a little more. But not worth it to take it apart. In fact I think following the Eibach instructions should have been my starting point.

My .02 on the VWR springs + VWR struts setup is on relatively good roads, it's pretty good. On any road with medium cracks, bumps, segmented pavement, railroad tracks, etc, it's not great. I find it too rough around the edges and jarring. Overall the rear seems to be harsher than the front.

Also, despite *barely* trimming my front bump stops, I am getting a screech-type noise on heavy compression of the strut at the apex of compression, like over a speed bump at speed, or a bigger dip in the road. I'm not sure what this noise is — possibly tire fender contact? I don't really know what that sounds like. Only when the fronts compress heavily, and predominantly on the driver's side. In any other scenario, I am not getting squeaks, clunks, pops, etc.

I don't know if the ride would have been better or not, but to be honest I wish I had gone with the ST X coilovers. The VWR struts were much more cost effective though already having the springs. To me it's very clear it's a modified lowered suspension and compromises are being made. I don't remember feeling that way the first several years with these springs on the stock struts and untrimmed bump stops.

Hope that helps and your mileage may vary. If you have perfectly smooth roads you'll be fine. I see you're from Canada though, so maybe you have the same issues with snow, salt, ice as I do.

 

[tigeo]

I trimmed them in a weird way (1/8" off the top of the fronts, and 1/4" off the top of the rears plus ~20mm off the bottom of the rears). So in mm, about 3-4mm off the fronts, and ~26mm off the rears total.

After driving on them like this for awhile, I still have complaints. I still think the rears are overly harsh on bumps. I think I am going to trim them more and remove the white plastic ring.

Seeing @DerHase chart and video, I wish I had trimmed the fronts a little more. But not worth it to take it apart. In fact I think following the Eibach instructions should have been my starting point.

My .02 on the VWR springs + VWR struts setup is on relatively good roads, it's pretty good. On any road with medium cracks, bumps, segmented pavement, railroad tracks, etc, it's not great. I find it too rough around the edges and jarring. Overall the rear seems to be harsher than the front.

Also, despite *barely* trimming my front bump stops, I am getting a screech-type noise on heavy compression of the strut at the apex of compression, like over a speed bump at speed, or a bigger dip in the road. I'm not sure what this noise is — possibly tire fender contact? I don't really know what that sounds like. Only when the fronts compress heavily, and predominantly on the driver's side. In any other scenario, I am not getting squeaks, clunks, pops, etc.

I don't know if the ride would have been better or not, but to be honest I wish I had gone with the ST X coilovers. The VWR struts were much more cost effective though already having the springs. To me it's very clear it's a modified lowered suspension and compromises are being made. I don't remember feeling that way the first several years with these springs on the stock struts and untrimmed bump stops.

Hope that helps and your mileage may vary. If you have perfectly smooth roads you'll be fine. I see you're from Canada though, so maybe you have the same issues with snow, salt, ice as I do.

Screech could be the coils touching.

 

[nicholam77]

Screech could be the coils touching.

Touching... each other? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying when the spring is very compressed the coils are rubbing together potentially? The noise is pretty jarring and only lasts for .5- 1 second just at peak compression, and like I mentioned only on a big dip, and *mostly* just on the one front side.

Any idea why that would be happening? Anything I can do about it?

Thanks!

 

[tigeo]

Touching... each other? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying when the spring is very compressed the coils are rubbing together potentially? The noise is pretty jarring and only lasts for .5- 1 second just at peak compression, and like I mentioned only on a big dip, and *mostly* just on the one front side.

Any idea why that would be happening? Anything I can do about it?

Thanks!

hahaha yes, that's v. common with lowering springs b/c of the dead/helper coils. I've heard on mine before. You can buy rubber covers from 034 that address that issue.

 

[nicholam77]

hahaha yes, that's v. common with lowering springs b/c of the dead/helper coils. I've heard on mine before. You can buy rubber covers from 034 that address that issue.

Interesting. Thanks, I was not aware of that. It makes sense considering when it happens. I'll look into the rubber covers.

 

[ctrldel]

I trimmed them in a weird way (1/8" off the top of the fronts, and 1/4" off the top of the rears plus ~20mm off the bottom of the rears). So in mm, about 3-4mm off the fronts, and ~26mm off the rears total.

After driving on them like this for awhile, I still have complaints. I still think the rears are overly harsh on bumps. I think I am going to trim them more and remove the white plastic ring.

Seeing @DerHase chart and video, I wish I had trimmed the fronts a little more. But not worth it to take it apart. In fact I think following the Eibach instructions should have been my starting point.

My .02 on the VWR springs + VWR struts setup is on relatively good roads, it's pretty good. On any road with medium cracks, bumps, segmented pavement, railroad tracks, etc, it's not great. I find it too rough around the edges and jarring. Overall the rear seems to be harsher than the front.

Also, despite *barely* trimming my front bump stops, I am getting a screech-type noise on heavy compression of the strut at the apex of compression, like over a speed bump at speed, or a bigger dip in the road. I'm not sure what this noise is — possibly tire fender contact? I don't really know what that sounds like. Only when the fronts compress heavily, and predominantly on the driver's side. In any other scenario, I am not getting squeaks, clunks, pops, etc.

I don't know if the ride would have been better or not, but to be honest I wish I had gone with the ST X coilovers. The VWR struts were much more cost effective though already having the springs. To me it's very clear it's a modified lowered suspension and compromises are being made. I don't remember feeling that way the first several years with these springs on the stock struts and untrimmed bump stops.

Hope that helps and your mileage may vary. If you have perfectly smooth roads you'll be fine. I see you're from Canada though, so maybe you have the same issues with snow, salt, ice as I do.

Why st-x specially. I was considering Bilstein b14

 

[DerHase]

I trimmed them in a weird way (1/8" off the top of the fronts, and 1/4" off the top of the rears plus ~20mm off the bottom of the rears). So in mm, about 3-4mm off the fronts, and ~26mm off the rears total.

After driving on them like this for awhile, I still have complaints. I still think the rears are overly harsh on bumps. I think I am going to trim them more and remove the white plastic ring.

Seeing @DerHase chart and video, I wish I had trimmed the fronts a little more. But not worth it to take it apart. In fact I think following the Eibach instructions should have been my starting point.

My .02 on the VWR springs + VWR struts setup is on relatively good roads, it's pretty good. On any road with medium cracks, bumps, segmented pavement, railroad tracks, etc, it's not great. I find it too rough around the edges and jarring. Overall the rear seems to be harsher than the front.

Also, despite *barely* trimming my front bump stops, I am getting a screech-type noise on heavy compression of the strut at the apex of compression, like over a speed bump at speed, or a bigger dip in the road. I'm not sure what this noise is — possibly tire fender contact? I don't really know what that sounds like. Only when the fronts compress heavily, and predominantly on the driver's side. In any other scenario, I am not getting squeaks, clunks, pops, etc.

I don't know if the ride would have been better or not, but to be honest I wish I had gone with the ST X coilovers. The VWR struts were much more cost effective though already having the springs. To me it's very clear it's a modified lowered suspension and compromises are being made. I don't remember feeling that way the first several years with these springs on the stock struts and untrimmed bump stops.

Hope that helps and your mileage may vary. If you have perfectly smooth roads you'll be fine. I see you're from Canada though, so maybe you have the same issues with snow, salt, ice as I do.

You can trim bump stops while they're installed - it's a little awkward but possible. Just be careful to not gouge the shock shaft with a knife or razor blade (once it's nearly all the way through, you can tear the very last little bit usually).

When it comes to shocks/struts, something I learned a long time ago is if it's not Koni/Bilstein/Ohlins for daily drivable stuff (with the Ohlins being more of a nod towards track use), there's a really good chance it's probably junk. That's about the limit without getting into super low drag shaft seals that necessitate 15k or yearly service intervals. And even then they're not always optimal right out of the box (spring rates primarily, on this platform).

For truly better shocks in the performance sense, you're spending $3500-5000 on MCS, Penske, JRZ, etc... and they don't come with springs. Nothing else is really worth it IMO. If you've never driven a car on those shocks, your input just plain doesn't matter because you're ignorant of what good shocks feel like (not you @nicholam77 , just you in the general sense).

When it comes to coilovers that are supposedly "custom" (looking at you BC and MisFortune)... if you're not getting a shock dyno for each individual shock you purchase (a real one, not some pre-made chart from China that is printed out with every shock of the same part number), it's probably a downgrade. Or it falls into that budget category above (Ohlins won't come with a dyno, but if you buy through the right vendor, they will dyno them for you). There's a weird middle ground with revalving the China coilovers, but it takes a lot of work to get the body lengths right to optimize suspension travel plus a competent shock builder. Redshift does good stuff though they're way behind and have had problems the last year or two. Shaftworks USA would be a good alternative. But then you have $2000-2500 into these when realistically Ohlins are just a tad bit more (and will have a better resale value) should you ever sell them).

Buying shocks:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html

Shock info in general:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

/what's probably going to be an unpopular opinion.

 

[ctrldel]

You can trim bump stops Bilstei they're installed - it's a little awkward but possible. Just be careful to not gouge the shock shaft with a knife or razor blade (once it's nearly all the way through, you can tear the very last little bit usually).

When it comes to shocks/struts, something I learned a long time ago is if it's not Koni/Bilstein/Ohlins for daily drivable stuff, there's a really good chance it's probably junk. That's about the limit without getting into super low drag shaft seals that necessitate 15k or yearly service intervals. And even then they're not always optimal right out of the box (spring rates primarily, on this platform).

For truly better shocks in the performance sense, you're spending $3500-5000 on MCS, Penske, JRZ, etc... and they don't come with springs. Nothing else is really worth it IMO. If you've never driven a car on those shocks, your input just plain doesn't matter because you're ignorant of what good shocks feel like (not you @nicholam77 , just you in the general sense).

When it comes to coilovers that are supposedly "custom" (looking at you BC and MisFortune)... if you're not getting a shock dyno for each individual shock you purchase (a real one, not some pre-made chart from China that is printed out with every shock of the same part number), it's probably a downgrade. Or it falls into that budget category above (Ohlins won't come with a dyno, but if you buy through the right vendor, they will dyno them for you). There's a weird middle ground with revalving the China coilovers, but it takes a lot of work to get the body lengths right to optimize suspension travel plus a competent shock builder. Redshift does good stuff though they're way behind and have had problems the last year or two. Shaftworks USA would be a good alternative. But then you have $2000-2500 into these when realistically Ohlins are just a tad bit more (and will have a better resale value) should you ever sell them).

Buying shocks:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html

Shock info in general:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

/what's probably going to be an unpopular opinion.

I'm looking at B8+VWR springs or B14.
I already have VWR springs installed.

I'm looking for an overall smoother ride with less bounce. I track but very casually like 2x times a year and I don't care about lap times I'm not competitive with it just our to have some fun

 

[DerHase]

I'm looking at B8+VWR springs or B14.
I already have VWR springs installed.

I'm looking for an overall smoother ride with less bounce. I track but very casually like 2x times a year and I don't care about lap times I'm not competitive with it just our to have some fun

@SouthFL_Mk7.5 has VWR springs but I forget what shocks so he might be the one to ask for more info on how to make them work.

 

[nicholam77]

You can trim bump stops while they're installed - it's a little awkward but possible.

Yeah I've trimmed the rears on the car, super easy. Wasn't sure if the springs / dust boots would make it too hard to do the fronts, but it's been a bit since I've jacked the car up since it's winter.

When it comes to shocks/struts, something I learned a long time ago is if it's not Koni/Bilstein/Ohlins for daily drivable stuff (with the Ohlins being more of a nod towards track use), there's a really good chance it's probably junk.

I believe that. I'm certainly not an expert and I've never driven any of those. I believe "you get what you pay for" holds true for a lot of things. At same time, I've also read people on here saying B8's are overly stiff and firm, or are bouncy with certain spring combos, etc. It's really hard to know what a suspension setup is going to feel like until you've bought it and driven it yourself. And what constitutes an acceptable ride is somewhat subjective from person to person... hard to convey through a forum on the internet.

I'm not making any excuses for VWR, but there are several on here with that combo that spoke highly of it so that's why I gave it a try. For me anyways, cost is a factor... definitely no way I was spending $5k for something good haha. Because at the end of the day, I don't track my car, I don't race my car, I don't even have fun roads around me. It doesn't see that many miles, and 90% of those are commute and dropping the kids at daycare. I really just wanted the aesthetics of a lowered car, without it chatting my teeth out over the bigger bumps.

I'll try trimming the bump stops a bit more when it gets warmer.

Why st-x specially. I was considering Bilstein b14

No real reason other than when I was trying to figure this out last spring, the ST's were on sale for a good price, and anecdotally seem to be liked. I also emailed them + Bilstein about their coatings and how they would hold up to road salts, and what they recommended to maintain them in my climate, and the ST rep was a bit more confidence-instilling. B14 was also on my list.

Another thing that pushed me towards the shocks is winter and snowfall (clearance). But we've had almost no snow this winter