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Underboost Problem Almost Immediately After APR Stage 1 Tune

Belthasar

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA (USA)
Car(s)
Mk7 GSW 4Mo 6MT
It's possible it did fail, but a tune isn't "harder" on an actuator. It uses the full range regardless of tuning. It appears incapable of opening past 49% and then it gets stuck at that position. There are lot so of tables that control the actuator and it's possible that something wasn't changed appropriately or something from another tune/boxcode was copied over thinking it would be ok and instead it causes them to die prematurely. I would certainly try the stock flash since its free. Easy way to determine if it died. if it did, well not a bad time to upgrade to an IS20. :cool:

Interesting. And the failure of the end stop test? Could that also be attributed to a tuning issue?

When a tuner flashes an APR tune, is there anything that’s done custom to the individual vehicle? Or is it literally flashing the same image on every ecu? I ask because it sounds like this would be a more common problem on any is12 stage 1 tune.

If there is indeed a software issue, is it possible that driving around and testing the problem with moderate aggression would damage anything?
 

Belthasar

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA (USA)
Car(s)
Mk7 GSW 4Mo 6MT
Got an appointment with my tuner to flash back to stock later this week. Let's hope this is a simple software problem.

Mods, feel free to move this to the regular Golf Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Tunes forum. Although this thread topic is applicable to GTI folks regarding wastegates and APR tunes, I probably should have posted with the 1.8 crowd.
 

Belthasar

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA (USA)
Car(s)
Mk7 GSW 4Mo 6MT
Update: I went ahead and took my tuner up on his offer to flash back to stock as a test. After flashing back to stock, I didn't even get a chance to log some data; the EPC light came on immediately upon putting it under load in 2nd gear. This time, I got an actual wastegate code:

1 Fault Found:
15202 - Actuator Module for Turbocharger 1
P00AF 00 [175] - Stuck
MIL ON - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 50425 km
Date: 2023.01.05
Time: 09:57:25

Engine RPM: 2506.50 /min
Normed load value: 42.4 %
Vehicle speed: 36 km/h
Coolant temperature: 97 °C
Intake air temperature: 35 °C
Ambient air pressure: 990 mbar
Voltage terminal 30: 14.375 V
Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
Status of charge air pressure control valve basic setting-LV_BPA_AD_REQ[0]: 00000000
Charge air pressure control valve uncond voltage sensor: 2.0850 V
Charge air pressure control valve position: target value: 84.60 %
Charge air pressure control valve position: actual value: 45.38 %
Charge air pressure control valve activation pulse duty factor: 53.58 %
Charge air pressure control valve voltage: position closed: 3.8367 V
STATE_BPA[0]: OPM

It's very interesting that a different fault code was thrown under the stock tune, but this would seem to pinpoint the problem as the wastegate actuator itself. What do you think, @Diggs24 ?

Fortunately, I already ordered a replacement actuator from CTS Turbo. I think I'll pull off the old actuator and if the wastegate arm is seized, the new one will go on a used IS20. If the arm is free, I'll likely just replace the actuator with the IS12 still mounted.
 

Belthasar

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA (USA)
Car(s)
Mk7 GSW 4Mo 6MT
APR does offer an 87 octane version of the IS20 tune. If I have to pull the turbo off, there’s no question that it’s IS20 time.

However, since this failure happened immediately after spending the money on the stage 1 tune, budget is tight right now. Gonna try to see if I can just replace the actuator.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Sounds like the WG - common issue on the IS12 for some folks after tuning. IS20 time (or 38!).
 

Salami

Autocross Champion
Location
North Carolina
Car(s)
MK7.5R
APR does offer an 87 octane version of the IS20 tune. If I have to pull the turbo off, there’s no question that it’s IS20 time.

However, since this failure happened immediately after spending the money on the stage 1 tune, budget is tight right now. Gonna try to see if I can just replace the actuator.

If it helps you should only need to pay an upgrade free to run the IS20 tune, you don't need to purchase the tune at full price.
 

Belthasar

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA (USA)
Car(s)
Mk7 GSW 4Mo 6MT
If it helps you should only need to pay an upgrade free to run the IS20 tune, you don't need to purchase the tune at full price.

That's what started to sway me toward doing the IS20 upgrade - a very reasonable retune fee. However, I understand that I would probably be looking at a new clutch in the future going down this path, no? I have 4motion, so I got the 6MT. My understanding is that this is the same clutch as the GTI, right?
 

Belthasar

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA (USA)
Car(s)
Mk7 GSW 4Mo 6MT
Update: While awaiting my replacement actuator from CTS turbo, I pulled off the old one. Contrary to popular belief, this can be done with the turbo still mounted to the car, and entirely from the top (key for AWD guys like me).

The wastegate was indeed stuck in the open position. I assume this is not normal when the car is off?

IMG_6093.jpeg


I confirmed that it's not the actual wastegate arm that's seized; when I removed the actuator rod, everything moved freely.

Question for the mind hive: while I have the downpipe out and easy access to the wastegate mechanism, I was thinking about being proactive about preventing this from seizing in the future. Can I clean up the soot around the wastegate arm inside the turbo with some brake cleaner, and apply some high temp nickel antiseize here? That is, in the circled area below?


IMG_6093 copy.jpeg



Or would a future build up of soot bind to the anti seize compound and run counteractive to what I'm trying to accomplish? I can also apply the anti seize compound to the external arm mechanism. @Diggs24, any thoughts on this?

As for the actuator itself, there doesn't appear to be any obvious damage.

IMG_6108.jpeg


However, when I try to move the worm wheel manually, it does appear to bind for a moment, as illustrated in my video below:


The worm wheel teeth all appear to be fine

IMG_6116.jpg



However I'm wondering if the inner "channeled" worm gear (which attaches to the actuator rod and pushes it forward/backward) is insufficiently greased:

IMG_6114.jpg

IMG_6117.jpg


If so, then I can see how this would cause sticking and, eventually, full blown failure. Alternatively, it's possible that the bearing in the middle of the worm wheel is binding

IMG_6115.jpg



Those are my best guesses as to why this thing is starting to stick. It seems to me that there are multiple potential failure points in this design that can cause a domino effect (like failure of the clock spring, or grinding of the worm gear teeth). I also wonder if adding more high temperature grease to the channels in the internal worm gear will allow the actuator rod bushing to move more freely and prevent failure. Either way, this feels like a design that is inferior to that of the CTS turbo actuator replacement, which uses multiple reduction gears for torque transfer.

Having held the actuator in my hand and poked around its internals, I'm not entirely convinced of the conventional wisdom that a tune is any "harder" on this part. I don't see how higher boost levels will meaningfully stress any of the components. Perhaps a tune will increase the duty cycle of this actuator, which will cause it to wear out quicker and really expose its weak design more swiftly. However I'm still baffled as to why I saw failure so soon after tuning.
 

Belthasar

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
PA (USA)
Car(s)
Mk7 GSW 4Mo 6MT
Good stuff. Typically its the clockspring that fails from what I’ve seen. Guess it was just coincidence of the timing. Cant hurt to lube the pivot arm on the flapper now. I’d keep it on the outside as unsure what effect it might have on the cat if it burns off.

It seems to me that clockspring failure would likely be a second "domino"; something else failing internally would likely cause too much tension and spring failure would be a symptom of an earlier failure. That's just my guess based on holding the unit and feeling how it operates. Regardless, the clockspring is a bit flimsy.

That's a good point about the cat. I'll keep the anti seize on the outside.

Can I spray brake cleaner and clean the inside? I think at least cleaning the inside of the flapper arm and where it sits in the turbo housing can only help keep it operating freely (similar to cleaning throttle body butterflies, no?). I would avoid getting anything as far back as the turbine.
 

Diggs24

Autocross Champion
Location
de plains! de plains!
Car(s)
2015 GTI
It seems to me that clockspring failure would likely be a second "domino"; something else failing internally would likely cause too much tension and spring failure would be a symptom of an earlier failure. That's just my guess based on holding the unit and feeling how it operates. Regardless, the clockspring is a bit flimsy.

That's a good point about the cat. I'll keep the anti seize on the outside.

Can I spray brake cleaner and clean the inside? I think at least cleaning the inside of the flapper arm and where it sits in the turbo housing can only help keep it operating freely (similar to cleaning throttle body butterflies, no?). I would avoid getting anything as far back as the turbine.
Sure can’t see why not.
 
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