Performance Pack/Golf R Brakes- ABS vs. Threshold Braking

[Handguns4heaRTs]

I'm looking for some feedback, opinions, experience regarding braking with MK7s with PP/Golf R brakes. I've been experimenting off and on for the last 3-4 track sessions with Danny Ricciardo and Max Verstappen level late braking, Hulk smashing the brake pedal and engaging ABS vs. threshold braking, when applicable(I'm talking 100+mph to 30-40mph).

Those of you using PP/Golf R brakes, what are you thoughts on best way to brake with the stock calipers(edit: with upgraded pads)?

 

[jay745]

I've never used them personally but when I instruct students with stock brakes I tell them to brake hard and fast to minimize the time spent on the brakes which reduces heat build up. If you have stock brakes chances are you aren't trying to break any records, it's good practice for folks to ease off the gas before coming in hot. If you're braking after a long straight give the brake a confidence pump half way down to make sure your brakes are still there.

If you're beyond the novice/casual track day and actually are going for lap times - get some real brakes

 

[JackRabbitSLIM]

If you're beyond the novice/casual track day and actually are going for lap times - get some real brakes

+1

If you're trying to go fast, you need to brake hard. If you are braking hard, ABS or threshold, the stock stuff is going to fade in a lap or two.

My opinion on ABS vs threshold is to go ABS. Good laps come from minimizing mistakes and that's exactly what ABS does for you. Don't forget that the way you come OFF the brake is one of the best places to find time.

I used to test brake stopping distance for Honda. The test would go ABS->threshold->different failsafe modes (fuses pulled). I never was able to beat the stopping distance of ABS. My driving experience back then was about 12 years of autocross, 5 seasons of full National autocross competition and about 4 years of track driving.

 

[TheMaOdy66]

I am using PP brakes with Endless MA46b pads on my TCR (PP = OEM in the TCR), mostly Nordschleife. If the curve makes braking deeply in available I do this. If not I go the usual way with finishing braking before steering into the curve. Always as early back on throttle as possible. Which curve gives you the opportunity you will know after you have tried sometimes. And I use the full possibilities of ABS.

And I am absolutely with @jay745 : Nordschleife is a track on which the OEM PP brakes with upgraded pads (stainless lines, fluid and cooling is obligatory) work really good (vids to proof available, see Sig.) But if you do GP courses and small/narrow tracks regularly on a certain speed, go for a BBK.

 

[turbojzrr]

I believe this depends a lot on the tires you’re on and the turn that follows.

Yes it’s best to brake as late as possible but if you are doing a massive braking into a hairpin turn, your front tires are likely at a point of over heating by the time your braking is done and you won’t have as much grip left to do the actual cornering.

it might pay to brake slightly earlier and smoother at the edge of traction and not over heat the tires and use all your tire temperature quota on the braking, saving some for the cornering.

 

[spaparizos]

Is something different in PP brakes that would mean a different answer?

For a track 100+ to 40 miles, I do the following: touch the brakes first to remove any pad knock-back, then apply full pressure with a quick squeeze. If I can time it right before the ABS then great, if not, let ABS do its thing.

 

[3rdOne]

I am no expert but here are my thoughts- There are also different levels of ABS. A friend had a 911 GT3 (an older one) and he said the ABS was really nice and calibrated for track use so he had no problem just going into ABS with that car, I think individual channels for each tire so you can really brake hard and use the traction of the remaining tires that had traction. Other cars he has used like a Mini, BMW other 911's don't have track calibrated ABS and/or as sophisticated so he will threshold brake and not rely on the ABS so much. I doubt the GTI has a very sophisticated ABS.
My instructor at my last HPDE said to threshold brake but he may be been just trying to teach that technique.
I would try both and see how they work for you. Would ABS help with fade? or less heat build up in the first place? Might be a fun experiment.

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

Stomping on the brakes on a lightly sprung and underdamped (for track use) street car is a great way to unsettle the car.

 

[AceHammer]

I've always found threshold braking rather difficult with the floating 1 piston calipers. I've usually just let abs do abs things. Switched to the Macan calipers and keeping it right on the edge does seem significantly easier, but imo at my skill level, i'll probably just end up sticking with abs again.

Also, buy rs3 cooling deflectors for the front brakes. Made a notable difference at Watkins.

 

[tornado.red]

I'm looking for some feedback, opinions, experience regarding braking with MK7s with PP/Golf R brakes. I've been experimenting off and on for the last 3-4 track sessions with Danny Ricciardo and Max Verstappen level late braking, Hulk smashing the brake pedal and engaging ABS vs. threshold braking, when applicable(I'm talking 100+mph to 30-40mph).

Those of you using PP/Golf R brakes, what are you thoughts on best way to brake with the stock calipers(edit: with upgraded pads)?

Personally the PP/Golf R caliper is sufficient with racing pads and also steel braided hose.

 

[R Golf]

Personally the PP/Golf R caliper is sufficient with racing pads and also steel braided hose.

I agree. I run 10-12 track days per year in advanced groups and have zero issues with the calipers and rotors, even on tough braking tracks. I've been tracking for over 20 years and instructed for 8. I think I give the brakes a full workout while on track using pretty sticky tires (cup 2, Falken 660, RE71). The pads and fluid are key. With the right combo, the calipers and rotors will be fine. I recently went from Ferodo DS2500's to their DS3.12 front and 1.11 rear, because I started to overcook the 2500's. I don't use braided hoses, but others are very happy with them.

I think the answer to your original question is a combination. You want to be both smooth and very firm on the brakes. A lot of people think "smooth" braking means slowly getting on the brakes. It is really very quick but linear, not a stab. You want to keep the car settled and insure that you are at the correct speed for turn in, but the brake pressure should be max to insure the quickest deceleration.

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

A lot of people think "smooth" braking means slowly getting on the brakes. It is really very quick but linear, not a stab. You want to keep the car settled and insure that you are at the correct speed for turn in, but the brake pressure should be max to insure the quickest deceleration.

Perfectly worded!

 

[tornado.red]

I agree. I run 10-12 track days per year in advanced groups and have zero issues with the calipers and rotors, even on tough braking tracks. I've been tracking for over 20 years and instructed for 8. I think I give the brakes a full workout while on track using pretty sticky tires (cup 2, Falken 660, RE71). The pads and fluid are key. With the right combo, the calipers and rotors will be fine. I recently went from Ferodo DS2500's to their DS3.12 front and 1.11 rear, because I started to overcook the 2500's. I don't use braided hoses, but others are very happy with them.

I think the answer to your original question is a combination. You want to be both smooth and very firm on the brakes. A lot of people think "smooth" braking means slowly getting on the brakes. It is really very quick but linear, not a stab. You want to keep the car settled and insure that you are at the correct speed for turn in, but the brake pressure should be max to insure the quickest deceleration.

Very true!

 

[AceHammer]

A big factor for brakes on these cars is power level imo.

When I was stock at 220hp I had no real issues with just upgraded pads fluid and pp rear calipers.

Once you move above 400hp the stock 1 piston front calipers either pp or non pp, definitely start to struggle.

 

[tornado.red]

A big factor for brakes on these cars is power level imo.

When I was stock at 220hp I had no real issues with just upgraded pads fluid and op rear calipers.

Once you move above 400hp the stock 1 piston front calipers either pp or non pp, definitely start to struggle.

Indeed.
Definitely need to upgrade calipers beyond 400hp.