MK7 GTI vs GOLF R Comparable Tunes

[Beaker1]

So I have been looking at the tunes as it relates to the mk7 gti and golf r.
I am curious about the crank hp and tq levels, specifically APR's numbers, again crank numbers not at the wheel.

It shows for a stage 2 93 Golf R tune at the HO level the following numbers at the crank (this would be with DP added, since it is stage 2.)

387 - tq
382 - hp

It shows for a stage 2 93 GTI tune

404 - tq
336 - hp

Now if the gti does the is38 swap stage 2, 93 DP they get the following numbers

403 - tq
386 - hp

Just curious as I understood the Golf R to have a little bit more beefed up internals over the GTI as to why the GTI is showing extremely strong numbers compared to the Golf R which has some forged internals with a bigger turbo, especially when comparing a stock GTI to a stock R. With the same turbo swap they are getting better numbers than the Golf R at the crank. Just curious, maybe I'm reading to wrong, but I was comparing crank to crank. Cheers.

 

[Stage2Sasquatch]

Because beefed up internals don't necessarily make more power, they allow you to make more power safely.

 

[Spinozaman]

Different cars with same mods will make different hp - just natural variation. Take two brand new Rs and I bet you'd see that variation. Then take into account different days, different temps, humidity, pressure, etc - and you get more variation.

Plus the drivetrain on an R vs a GTI is different. That back-calculate the crank hp numbers of their hub dyno making an assumption on drivetrain loss from wheel hp. It's actually kind of ethical of them not to rejigger the numbers since one would think the R would be higher.

 

[tofur99]

Because beefed up internals don't necessarily make more power, they allow you to make more power safely.

lol yeah the internals are beefed up so you don't pop the motor with the increased power. Good luck to the GTI guys pumping out 400hp on the stock GTI motor, theres a reason VW went to all the trouble it did with the R motor (different head alloy to handle the heat, different pistons, exhaust valves, seat rings, camshaft, piston cooling jets, bigger radiator w/ auxiliary ones, etc). They feel confident enough in the upgraded one that the R400 would only have a tune to make the extra power, not additional internal upgrades.

And also APR hasn't released the updated stage 2 tune for the R, when they do the power numbers will be similar if not greater then the is38 GTI.

 

[Al_in_Philly]

First, Spinozaman is right, as there are often significant variations between dyno runs--even on the same engine on the same day! But beyond that, sometimes you need to read into the numbers to get a good sense of what's going on. Given the torque and horsepower figures you showed, the GTI engine started to run out of steam (at least) by 4350 RPM, whereas the R would continue pulling up to around 5200 RPM, otherwise the HP figures would change. My guess is that some of this is due to different cam profiles and timing, as well as differences in their compression ratios, though that's just an educated guess from looking at those numbers.

 

[Beaker1]

lol yeah the internals are beefed up so you don't pop the motor with the increased power. Good luck to the GTI guys pumping out 400hp on the stock GTI motor, theres a reason VW went to all the trouble it did with the R motor (different head alloy to handle the heat, different pistons, exhaust valves, seat rings, camshaft, piston cooling jets, bigger radiator w/ auxiliary ones, etc). They feel confident enough in the upgraded one that the R400 would only have a tune to make the extra power, not additional internal upgrades.

And also APR hasn't released the updated stage 2 tune for the R, when they do the power numbers will be similar if not greater then the is38 GTI.

It was just a little weird knowing that our engines were internally stronger yet the tunes for the GTI seemed to be larger gains over stock than the R. That would be pretty cool if APR releases an updated version for the R. I do feel confident that the engines are strong for sure.

 

[Beaker1]

First, Spinozaman is right, as there are often significant variations between dyno runs--even on the same engine on the same day! But beyond that, sometimes you need to read into the numbers to get a good sense of what's going on. Given the torque and horsepower figures you showed, the GTI engine started to run out of steam (at least) by 4350 RPM, whereas the R would continue pulling up to around 5200 RPM, otherwise the HP figures would change. My guess is that some of this is due to different cam profiles and timing, as well as differences in their compression ratios, though that's just an educated guess from looking at those numbers.

I guess what it boils down to is overall performance and longevity. It would be interesting to see a stage 2 GTI on a roll against a stage 2 Golf R with the same bolt ons. Would also like to see a GTI with the is38 swap with the same tune vs a Golf R same tune. From a dig it's easy to guess that the R has the advantage. Hopefully more to come, I was just wondering if APR was holding back on the R's seeing the numbers they are putting down on the GTI's.

 

[normcaldwell]

It shows for a stage 2 93 Golf R tune at the HO level the following numbers at the crank (this would be with DP added, since it is stage 2.)

387 - tq
382 - hp

It shows for a stage 2 93 GTI tune

404 - tq
336 - hp

Now if the gti does the is38 swap stage 2, 93 DP they get the following numbers

403 - tq
386 - hp

Just curious as I understood the Golf R to have a little bit more beefed up internals over the GTI as to why the GTI is showing extremely strong numbers compared to the Golf R which has some forged internals with a bigger turbo, especially when comparing a stock GTI to a stock R. With the same turbo swap they are getting better numbers than the Golf R at the crank. Just curious, maybe I'm reading to wrong, but I was comparing crank to crank. Cheers.

The R is geared lower than the GTI, and the R cams are also designed to be more effective at higher RPMs than the GTI cams.
Even with similar HP/TQ numbers, the R still has more effective torque because of the lower gearing.
At the same time, the R weighs about 250 lbs. more than the GTI, so more weight to accelerate.

Agreed that from a dig, Haldex-AWD trumps even VAQ Diff FWD.
It would be interesting; just for the fun, to see some kind of rolling start comparison if the GTI had the IS38 setup. Both cars would need to have the same tire models and sizes, I would think, for the comparison to begin to approach apples-to-apples.

And, as someone has noted, APR isn't done yet with R tuning.

 

[tofur99]

I guess what it boils down to is overall performance and longevity. It would be interesting to see a stage 2 GTI on a roll against a stage 2 Golf R with the same bolt ons. Would also like to see a GTI with the is38 swap with the same tune vs a Golf R same tune. From a dig it's easy to guess that the R has the advantage. Hopefully more to come, I was just wondering if APR was holding back on the R's seeing the numbers they are putting down on the GTI's.

The R APR tune was a bit rushed compared to the GTI, they also did the is38 after the R and according to Arin learned some stuff in the process (as well as during development of the stage 3 kit) so they are going to apply all that to the R and update the tune.

 

[Mike Ralph]

I mean, I would never do an apr tune anyway.... Research some others! GIAC is saying 400 crank for golf r. Or unitronic... Can't remember... But also, have fun putting 400hp on the pavement in a fwd hatch... Apr stage 3 kit for R pumps 522, and I can tell you from test driving a MaxR, it doesn't spin haha

 

[Mike Ralph]

But wait for Cobb and ams honestly! I don't know why anyone would be buying apr software OR hardware once these guys release!

 

[Coolrunning39]

But wait for Cobb and ams honestly! I don't know why anyone would be buying apr software OR hardware once these guys release!

I'll be sticking with my UM tune because of the love I have for it BUT I am seriously stoked to see what Cobb has put together for us.

 

[greggles]

I do feel confident that the engines are strong for sure.

Considering all the stage 3 and stage 3+ testing was done on the GTI (450 whp) and they weren't able to break anything in the engine, really would make the R engine an unbelievably stout platform.

Of course there are other factors then the engine to consider.

 

[Beaker1]

I mean, I would never do an apr tune anyway.... Research some others! GIAC is saying 400 crank for golf r. Or unitronic... Can't remember... But also, have fun putting 400hp on the pavement in a fwd hatch... Apr stage 3 kit for R pumps 522, and I can tell you from test driving a MaxR, it doesn't spin haha

Been pretty happy with APR over the years. I had a stage 1, then stage 2 then K04 in my last VW with APR and everything was really solid no issues. I have been looking at some of the other tuners just to get some perspective. I do like Unitronic too. We'll see when the time comes.