Fueling/Injectors on Ethanol Blends

[manu97]

Was thinking about getting an ethanol tune through EQT, but a bit concerned about how my injectors would stack up to it. Just stage 1 for now, and if I go Vortex or anything, I'd probably end up going MPI. Just wanted to know if I should be thinking about replacing injectors with new OEM ones before I go ahead with it. Not one to drive super hard, but I like to do pulls once in a while. 2017 MK7 with 80ishk miles on there.

 

[7umberjackZac]

I don't think your concern is clear? Like either the Direct injectors are working correctly or they are not. MPI will require a fuel pump and everything that goes with that. You run out of fueling with MPI or E35 mixes

 

[manu97]

So my concern is that the injectors, over time, on corn seem to fail pretty often. Is there any way I can see if they're not functioning properly without removing them? Or is there something I should look out for before they fail completely?

 

[scrllock]

So my concern is that the injectors, over time, on corn seem to fail pretty often. Is there any way I can see if they're not functioning properly without removing them? Or is there something I should look out for before they fail completely?

The dirty secret of running ethanol is that you have to do a lot more fuel system maintenance. Injectors and filters especially need to be inspected and replaced more frequently. And that's a pain with DI and OE filter socks.
If you don't want to commit to at least inspecting your injectors and pump yearly, don't run ethanol full time. Run gasoline through your system regularly to keep your seals lubricated. Keep an eye out for misfires or wider variations in fuel trims (leaking/clogged injectors). None of the fuel additives seem to actually do anything. Maybe an injector cleaner would help, dunno.

It's a shame no one has come out with an off the shelf external fuel filter, it would help a ton. Jack up one side of your car, unscrew it, rinse it (if reusable), pop it back in. Filtration can be improved on the stock pre-pump sock, which cuts down on gunk clogging up your injectors. This is a more popular solution on other DI cars where injector servicing is a pain (e.g. newer BMW).

The primary issue I had on my '19 + e85 was the teflon seal blowing out on one of the continental direct injectors. Nothing really on the market that I know of to address that. Hoping I can find a solution because replacing those every 25k is annoying.

TL;DR No, because once they're not functioning properly you shouldn't be driving it.

 

[JerseyDrew77]

So my concern is that the injectors, over time, on corn seem to fail pretty often. Is there any way I can see if they're not functioning properly without removing them? Or is there something I should look out for before they fail completely?

Where are you getting your info from? Because that's a myth. E85 is a better cleaning agent than regular fuel and your injectors will fail more often due to being dirty/clogged. Throw in some Berryman B-12 or Seafoam once in a while to keep things clean if you are worried about it.

https://eflexfuel.com/us/blog/does-e85-damage-engines---or-injectors-or-fuel-lines
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...t-e85-and-ethanol-16-things-you-need-to-know/

 

[manu97]

My information is 100% anecdotal. Just was looking at the EQT page and saw that there was a pretty significant amount of discussion regarding ethanol and injectors. If all I've gotta do is run some normal 93 through it to make it happy again every few tanks, then that's a small price to pay. How can I tell if an injector is letting go? And what are the possible risks if it does let go?

 

[manu97]

Where are you getting your info from? Because that's a myth. E85 is a better cleaning agent than regular fuel and your injectors will fail more often due to being dirty/clogged. Throw in some Berryman B-12 or Seafoam once in a while to keep things clean if you are worried about it.

https://eflexfuel.com/us/blog/does-e85-damage-engines---or-injectors-or-fuel-lines
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...t-e85-and-ethanol-16-things-you-need-to-know/

My concern isn't that it's dirty or anything - more so that the injectors are being run harder because the volume needed is significantly higher.

 

[Mosquito]

There are a couple of things that go on. Wish it was as easy as putting some injector cleaner in there.

Eventually the truth will come out and some are going to be pretty pissed they lost their engines.

 

[JerseyDrew77]

My concern isn't that it's dirty or anything - more so that the injectors are being run harder because the volume needed is significantly higher.

You're only a stage 1 car and even if you do upgrade to a hybrid, the stock injectors can handle it.

 

[scrllock]

My concern isn't that it's dirty or anything - more so that the injectors are being run harder because the volume needed is significantly higher.

That's not really a problem, the limits of the stock system are pretty well-understood and if you go MPI then the stock injector duty isn't a concern at all.

The EQT page is by-and-large a place for people to bandwagon on some real problems and some made-up problems, and EQT, like any vendor, is happy to sell you something for it. I'd guess they'll end up selling some surge tank solution soon which A) 99% of people don't need but B) would technically help alleviate clogged injector issues if they include a nice serviceable filter.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...t-e85-and-ethanol-16-things-you-need-to-know/

Yes, ethanol itself is great for the motor, but e85 can contain a questionable mixture of denaturants/water, plus it's hygroscopic (as that link mentions), so you do not want to let it sit in your car long. Local station here had a fire sale on the last of their e85 (replaced the pump with ethanol-free) and a couple guys got, like, half water out of it. E85 is great, you just gotta pay much closer attention.

 

[JerseyDrew77]

That's not really a problem, the limits of the stock system are pretty well-understood and if you go MPI then the stock injector duty isn't a concern at all.

The EQT page is by-and-large a place for people to bandwagon on some real problems and some made-up problems, and EQT, like any vendor, is happy to sell you something for it. I'd guess they'll end up selling some surge tank solution soon which A) 99% of people don't need but B) would technically help alleviate clogged injector issues if they include a nice serviceable filter.


Yes, ethanol itself is great for the motor, but e85 can contain a questionable mixture of denaturants/water, plus it's hygroscopic (as that link mentions), so you do not want to let it sit in your car long. Local station here had a fire sale on the last of their e85 (replaced the pump with ethanol-free) and a couple guys got, like, half water out of it. E85 is great, you just gotta pay much closer attention.

Yes but the amount of water in the tank depends on your region, as in how much humidity is in your region. My car was down for months, like over 3, when my block was being built and it had at least half of a tank of E85 in it. Started up like a champ, with no issues, after sitting for that long. Now if I lived in Florida and had my block built during the summer time, then that would be a different story. Also, I wouldn't be buying the last of any stations E85 because you don't know how long they've had that pump and I am not a fan of the EQT FB page at all! Went there once under my wife's FB and that's all it took. Never again will I view that shit-show.

 

[FSTSNAL]

The dirty secret of running ethanol is that you have to do a lot more fuel system maintenance. Injectors and filters especially need to be inspected and replaced more frequently. And that's a pain with DI and OE filter socks.
If you don't want to commit to at least inspecting your injectors and pump yearly, don't run ethanol full time. Run gasoline through your system regularly to keep your seals lubricated. Keep an eye out for misfires or wider variations in fuel trims (leaking/clogged injectors). None of the fuel additives seem to actually do anything. Maybe an injector cleaner would help, dunno.

It's a shame no one has come out with an off the shelf external fuel filter, it would help a ton. Jack up one side of your car, unscrew it, rinse it (if reusable), pop it back in. Filtration can be improved on the stock pre-pump sock, which cuts down on gunk clogging up your injectors. This is a more popular solution on other DI cars where injector servicing is a pain (e.g. newer BMW).

The primary issue I had on my '19 + e85 was the teflon seal blowing out on one of the continental direct injectors. Nothing really on the market that I know of to address that. Hoping I can find a solution because replacing those every 25k is annoying.

TL;DR No, because once they're not functioning properly you shouldn't be driving it.

Can’t you switch to the Bosch injectors from the earlier cars? I hear they have less issues with ethanol.

 

[FSTSNAL]

Also, accel has some listed for vw that are specifically listed as full stainless and ethanol and methanol compatible. They are listed as lb/hr so would have to convert. Not sure how their flow and atomization is or if they work without altering your tune but they may be an option as well.

 

[scrllock]

Can’t you switch to the Bosch injectors from the earlier cars? I hear they have less issues with ethanol.

The pinning is different. I think you can go to the older ones but not vice versa? Either way, I'm on a different revision entirely now, no issues yet *knock on wood*.

Can you link to those? I have only seen aftermarket port injectors that mention anything about ethanol mix compatibility. AFAIK there are no aftermarket DI for the gen3.

 

[FSTSNAL]

The pinning is different. I think you can go to the older ones but not vice versa? Either way, I'm on a different revision entirely now, no issues yet *knock on wood*.

Can you link to those? I have only seen aftermarket port injectors that mention anything about ethanol mix compatibility. AFAIK there are no aftermarket DI for the gen3.

Let me dig. Didn’t look too closely so May say vw and be for vr6 or something.