Driving at (and over) the Limit

[tpellegr]

Trying to put my off into the wall yesterday into perspective and was rereading some Ross Bentley that made me feel a bit better about it. After all, it’s a learning process and to develop your driving skills at the limit, you need to sometimes driver over that limit. Yesterday was a wake up that I still have a long way to go in developing the skills needed to be fast around a track.

Have you had offs, crashes, or “oh sh*t” moments? Would love to hear about them and what you think of this concept.

“You know that sometimes when you overdrive, you don’t get away with it. Again, that’s okay. It’s part of being fast and part of being a winner. With experience, though, the results of overdriving will be fewer and fewer offs, spins, and crashes. The results may be running a little wide, a bit of a lock-up, or a half-spin-and-go, but that’s okay too. In other words, you will get even better at controlling an “overdriving off-line experience” (a “moment”), to the point where it will seem to others that you don’t make mistakes. Sure, you’re still making mistakes, but they are so small that they are hard to notice. This concept of overdrive, underdrive, over, under . . . averaging out to being at the limit is critical. In the beginning the difference between over and under is quite large. With experience, the difference becomes quite small. Some drivers see the overdriving part as being “wrong” or unnecessary. If that’s you, you need to recalibrate your impression of the model. In other words, you need to spend just a little more time overdriving the car than you currently do. You need to raise the average.”

-Ross Bentley

 

[Will_]

I think the biggest “Oh sh*t!!” Moment I’ve had on track is coming into T6 at Laguna Seca a little hot. Doesn’t look to bad on camera but that turn is deeply banked on the left side and the car goes really light at entry. If you overcorrect it will just spit you out once the grip comes back as the uphill portion starts. You can see it after 10:15 in the below video:

I try to remind myself every time I go out that it’s not a race, there’s no rewards for being fastest, and that at the end of the day I need to drive this car home. I find myself focusing on my line and smoothness more so than pure speed. I am slowly working up to faster laps but know I also have a long way to go.

In terms of Bentleys philosophy above - I certainly think it makes sense in the context of becoming a great racing driver. For those of us with only one car though, it’s tough to mentally convince myself to really push the limits - the downside risk is just so high. I can’t recommend Autocross enough though for newer drivers. You can really mess up there without wrecking your car. On a track, I definitely take it easier.

 

[tpellegr]

In terms of Bentleys philosophy above - I certainly think it makes sense in the context of becoming a great racing driver. For those of us with only one car though, it’s tough to mentally convince myself to really push the limits - the downside risk is just so high. I can’t recommend Autocross enough though for newer drivers. You can really mess up there without wrecking your car. On a track, I definitely take it easier.

That corner looks pretty hairy. I hope I have a chance to drive there someday. I'm sure the video hardly does it justice.

Also, I totally agree about the Bentley quote. Most of us are driving for fun and a huge repair bill tends to be a bit of a buzzkill. My goal at the track will (and should) be totally different than someone driving competitive time attacks or wheel to wheel, but I do think he's right about being comfortable with pushing your limits a little. After all, that's how you learn and get better.

 

[Keehs360]

I had a ton of oh shit moments till I flashed the vaq for increased traction. The understeer is so bad and the lsd reaction was so delayed. I’d always feel as if I was being dragged off the road.

 

[Cliff]

Have you had offs, crashes, or “oh sh*t” moments? Would love to hear about them and what you think of this concept.

No crashes, thank goodness. I've been off a few times when I've been driving, a few times when my student was driving, and I've had my share of oh shit moments. In all cases the offs ended up fine (more or less) because we went off the track with the wheels pointing straight ahead and got the car slowed down and under control before returning to the track. The more or less was a bent wheel and a blown tire that happened to me about 5 years ago.

Bad things usually begin when the driver tries to save it when they begin to go off. If you go two off, don't do anything drastic as it will upset the balance of the car and things will get worse. Ease off the throttle, straighten the steering wheel and get the car slowed down. Gradually bring the car back onto the track but remember that the transition from the unpaved surface to the track surface will be abrupt, so slow down and be gentle.

Sometimes you can carve a little straight into the middle of a turn and use it to brake in a straight line. That can get you going slow enough to make it through the turn safely, albeit slowly and way off the line. Your lap time just went out the window, but it beats going off. You will need to be very aware of any traffic around you. I had that happen to me at T9 at Thunderhill a couple of year ago. I was chasing a Cayman GT4, spaced out and forgot to begin my turn at the right spot. I didn't catch the Cayman in that session (I passed him in a later session) but I stayed on the track.

You always need to be pushing your limits. A friend of mine likes to call it tickling your limits, because the changes should be incremental and not dramatic. If you enter a particular turn at x miles per hour and it felt solid, then try it at x + 1 on the next lap.

 

[3rdOne]

I listened to one of Ross Bentley's podcasts today. He was talking about this same thing. Might have been a different episode though because he did qualify it with HPDE drivers having a different goal of driving home after the event. Pushing the limit only enough to grow your limit and learn from it. Then pushing a bit harder when you are comfortable, very much like what Cliff said above.
When you are a racing driver, the car is a tool that is ok to damage while exploring the limits, not our pride and joy daily driver.
On my first (and only so far) HPDE event I had a two wheel off at turn at VIR. Not really an oh sh&t moment but a good experience knowing that I didn't freak out and overreact.

 

[Hollywood0220]

If when referring to “winning” means “ego” and not professional money at a sponsored event - then the driving beyond personal/vehicle handling limits is simply emotional immaturity.
If the consequence is losing a vehicle or damaging parts, if one doesn’t learn from the first occurrence - eventually that behavior will take your life or someone else’s.
OP asked for experience’s and that is the wisdom to pass.

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

I found recently that a little bit of autocross goes a long way to understanding the car’s setup and limits- in a very safe environment to extend past the limits. Last track outing I had done an Autox a couple weeks prior and it absolutely translated towards understanding my car’s dynamic limits at the track.

As for oh shit- 2005, Skip Barber 3 day race school in a formula dodge- LTO enterting T1 at Sebring- that rear engine swung around and put me into a spin- I put 2 feet in and looked to where I wanted to go! Came to a stop a little past track out coming out of T1! I’ve always since that spin, have a tendency to overthink T1 at Sebring while the rest of the track comes naturally to me.

 

[tpellegr]

If when referring to “winning” means “ego” and not professional money at a sponsored event - then the driving beyond personal/vehicle handling limits is simply emotional immaturity.
If the consequence is losing a vehicle or damaging parts, if one doesn’t learn from the first occurrence - eventually that behavior will take your life or someone else’s.
OP asked for experience’s and that is the wisdom to pass.

Valid point. IMO at the amateur level "winning" just means improving your driving and lap times (relative to no one but yourself). For me, much of the fun at HPDEs is developing the skills to drive quickly around a track. I'd rather be testing the edge in a VW Golf than be the person that shows up with a brand new C7Z and drives it like a granny. But again, that is a personal preference.

Let's face it, everytime we step on a track, we are accepting a certain amount of risk (both of bodily injury, and mechanically to the cars we drive). I think what Ross Bentley's quote gets at is, it's all about defining the limits to that risk that you are personally comfortable taking and driving to those limits instead of well beneath them. It doesn't matter if your limit is a 5 (granny in the Corvette) or a 10 (professional race car driver), to average a 5 sometimes you need to drive at a 6 and other times you'll be at a 4. It's all about finding that limit and working out how to drive it.

 

[tpellegr]

I found recently that a little bit of autocross goes a long way to understanding the car’s setup and limits- in a very safe environment to extend past the limits. Last track outing I had done an Autox a couple weeks prior and it absolutely translated towards understanding my car’s dynamic limits at the track.

As for oh shit- 2005, Skip Barber 3 day race school in a formula dodge- LTO enterting T1 at Sebring- that rear engine swung around and put me into a spin- I put 2 feet in and looked to where I wanted to go! Came to a stop a little past track out coming out of T1! I’ve always since that spin, have a tendency to overthink T1 at Sebring while the rest of the track comes naturally to me.

Thanks for the tip on the autox. Will definitely use those events as a way to test the cars limits after making changes. Great cheap, worry free, testing ground. I love it.

Also, RE Sebring, that sounds absolutely bowel inducing... Driving one of those cars in general would probably make my heart explode.

 

[marka]

Howdy,

I've have plenty of moments, big and small, across roadracing motorcycles and autocross and roadracing cars. This includes everything from crashes that resulted in hospital visits to spins where I didn't contact anything, to my time being a tenth longer because I made a small mistake. I've had moments caused by my driving mistakes, other people's driving mistakes, and parts breakage. There have been crashes where I would probably make the same choices I made that led to the crash and others where I can point to really stupid decisions I made.

In terms of driving mistakes... I think kinda by definition if you want to go fast / do well / win you have to be pushing your limits. When you push those limits, you will make mistakes.

Mistakes turn into crashes when the magnitude of the mistake is bigger than the window you have for recovery from that mistake.

Being hot into the corner is fine if the corner gives you enough recovery room to correct for that mistake. Its not fine if the wall around the outside of the corner means your recovery room isn't enough to correct.

As you become better, the magnitude of your mistakes becomes smaller. But because that magnitude is smaller, you will (if you want to be fast) push harder so that in at least some situations, your recovery window is smaller too. That recovery window is also set by things like track geography. A super fast corner with a jersey barrier on the outside of it will necessarily have a smaller recovery window than one with an expansive paved run off area.... At least in terms of actual damage, vs. lap time.

To me, as it relates to actual crashes, the trick is balancing how much risk is appropriate (last lap to win a championship, random track day, how much you can afford to wad up a car, etc.), your skill, and the situation itself. Being able to balance those factors well, particularly in situations where the track geography means that the consequences of getting it wrong will be severe, is one of the key differences between an ok driver and a really fast driver.

Mark

 

[marka]

Howdy,

In terms of biggest "oh sh*t" moments, I'll offer up a couple from the motorcycle racing days about a thousand years ago...

First one, I was running an endurance race at Brainard on an FZR400. Turn one at Brainard is FAST. On that bike, it was flat out, still tucked in, no real worries. Turn two was also FAST, but not quite that fast. It was JUST BARELY flat out on that (kinda slow, compared to the big boys) bike. I'd been working myself up to going through turn two without letting off. One lap I tipped the bike in, throttle still pinned, the back tire lazily lets go a little and suddenly I'm crossed up a little at probably 120+ mph. I basically just froze. Then, just as lazily, the back tire regains traction and I exit the corner, maybe 6" closer to the track edge than normal.

I stopped trying to take the corner with the throttle pinned. Later, when we changed the rear tire, there were various chunks missing. Got lucky... I didn't do anything to save that and if I'd thrown it down the road there, it would not have been pretty.


Second one was when I was racing a 125gp bike at Summit Pt. Leading, a little after midway through the race, I popped up to brake for turn one at around 130mph. As soon as I squeezed the brake lever, the (single) front disc exploded and I had no front brakes. Racing motorcycles stop almost entirely with the front brake, so it was code brown instantly. Luckily I'd been to the track a lot and knew there was an access road to the skid pad that was down off the end of the track in that area. I hit that access road at probably 80mph after standing on the rear brake, kept on the brake, and eventually got the bike slowed down. Went around the skid pad, didn't think too much about it other than being pissed that I'd been in the lead and would now not win. I decided that I'd rejoin and cruise around basically coasting into corners to salvage some points. Rejoined the track at the exit of turn two and headed up to turn three. Never got off the bike to look at anything, because I knew what had happened.

Unfortunately, I had not thought about where those pieces of brake rotor would have gone when it exploded. On a motorcycle, the radiator is right behind the front wheel. And when I tipped the bike into turn three (nice and easy, no worries), the slick rear tire that was now coated with water from the cooling system snapped sideways and I highsided myself into the hospital. No lasting damage to me, other than proving to myself just how much of a dumbass I was. The bike didn't fair as well.

Mark

 

[3rdOne]

Don’t know how I forgot this- about 10 years ago I did a Skip Barber school day at Road Atlanta. We were in Formula cars in the morning and Spec Miata in the afternoon. I was getting a bit confident in the Formula car and started to hitting the curbs in the esses. Hit one and got startled, lifted abruptly and promptly spun. Observers said that I missed the wall by a foot so ended up a harmless spin. Afterward I asked the instructor what I did wrong and he said I ran out of talent and walked away. I learned two things.
1. The "instructor" wasn't really interested in teaching me anything. While funny and true, his comment without any follow up showed his lack of interest in actually teaching me and making my mistake a learning event.
2. After thinking about it and after I learned a bit more about load transfer, I realized my sudden lift transferred load off the rear tires causing the spin, classic lift off oversteer in a mid-engine car.

 

[tpellegr]

Don’t know how I forgot this- about 10 years ago I did a Skip Barber school day at Road Atlanta. We were in Formula cars in the morning and Spec Miata in the afternoon. I was getting a bit confident in the Formula car and started to hitting the curbs in the esses. Hit one and got startled, lifted abruptly and promptly spun. Observers said that I missed the wall by a foot so ended up a harmless spin. Afterward I asked the instructor what I did wrong and he said I ran out of talent and walked away. I learned two things.
1. The "instructor" wasn't really interested in teaching me anything. While funny and true, his comment without any follow up showed his lack of interest in actually teaching me and making my mistake a learning event.
2. After thinking about it and after I learned a bit more about load transfer, I realized my sudden lift transferred load off the rear tires causing the spin, classic lift off oversteer in a mid-engine car.

Kind of a dick comment by the instructor. Sounds like a lesson learned though. I'm apparently still struggling with that one.

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

Don’t know how I forgot this- about 10 years ago I did a Skip Barber school day at Road Atlanta. We were in Formula cars in the morning and Spec Miata in the afternoon. I was getting a bit confident in the Formula car and started to hitting the curbs in the esses. Hit one and got startled, lifted abruptly and promptly spun. Observers said that I missed the wall by a foot so ended up a harmless spin. Afterward I asked the instructor what I did wrong and he said I ran out of talent and walked away. I learned two things.
1. The "instructor" wasn't really interested in teaching me anything. While funny and true, his comment without any follow up showed his lack of interest in actually teaching me and making my mistake a learning event.
2. After thinking about it and after I learned a bit more about load transfer, I realized my sudden lift transferred load off the rear tires causing the spin, classic lift off oversteer in a mid-engine car.

Same thing happened to me in that Skippy Formula car at Turn 1 Sebring as mentioned earlier in this thread! I learned that day what Lift Throttle Oversteer is and have always respected it.

When I did that school, incidents were 100% covered by the school. Amazing. Third time I did a school with them, they were beginning to offer a nominal fee for incident and damage coverage. If opting out, there was a hefty deductible. I quickly paid it on the spot at sign in (at Sebring again). The guy in line behind me opted out. I turned to him and mentioned it was worth it. He declined. A few hours later he LTO’d and hooked the car into the inside wall at T1.