Driving at (and over) the Limit

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

Ah, yes. Speaking of Instructors- besides being dicks occasionally (they’re not generally known for being warm and fuzzy)- they are extremely talented people who if you hire, will give you a glimpse of your car’s limits!
With my GTI, last year, I was apprehensively lapping around Sebring after having taken a 10 year hiatus. I needed a jolt of inspiration to get me back up to speed and hired the available pro for hire for a session. That GTI was immediately doing things I didn’t know it could do in terms of grip and braking. A true eye opener. He showed me the limits (within reason for the intended application- lapping). Definitely injected a shot of speed and confidence into my laps for the rest of that day! Hiring the pro wasn’t cheap but was a real bargain as compared to track damage!
Over a decade ago I hired a reputable pro for an entire weekend. Talk about an eye opening experience! Took me and my car at the time to our limits! As for limits, for me there’s two types of limits to explore; 1) limits with a roll cage and full safety equipment 2) limits in your street car with a 3pt seatbelt.

 

[Luva]

I haven't had any "oh sh--" moments at a race track for cars, but have had plenty at autocross events and in private and rental karts on kart tracks. Here are a few of my greatest hits:

- Snap the back end from throttle lift oversteer and put it backwards into the wall? Check
- Overcook the entry and have to brake in a straight line after turn-in? Check
- Ask for more than 100% of the available traction while trying to learn how to trail brake? Check
- Overcorrect and spin (tankslapping) when getting behind in a high speed slalom? Check

But the beautiful thing about making mistakes (at least the ones you can drive away from) is having the opportunity to learn from them. Ross Bentley's "Speed Secrets" books have really helped me to take in much more sensory input and translate that to awarenesses of the proper racing line and driving at the limit. Do I agree that you need to push yourself to find the limit? Absolutely. But as other have rightly pointed out, best to do so in a safe environment. As one of my favorite autocross instructors was fond of saying, "push harder, suck less".

Regarding track driving, I can't image myself ever heading to a HPDE or track day without first having at least autocross experience. I think it much safer to find the limit in 2nd gear on a wide open paved surface with a bunch of cones. To use a poor analogy, I'd be scared "sh--less" if I bypassed the Cessna and jumped straight into the F-15 for my first solo flight. But, to each his own.

 

[Handguns4heaRTs]

2 oh shit moments on track- first was at Chuckwalla, chasing some mofo in a full GT race spec C6 corvette that was slow AF and wouldn't give me the point by. I was driving aggressive and angry, overdriving like Bentley said, and spun ~270* coming out of some esses. Lesson learned regarding driving angry.

Most recent was at Big Willow, coming out of the 90-100mph "Turn" 2, rock flew up and hit/cracked my windshield right as I was straightening out my hands, and I flinched and jerked to the left, off into the rocks/sands where brakes don't work, and slid/skated for ~100yards. Torn CV boot, windshield, and pride/ego were only damage. Not sure what lesson there is to learn from this one. Don't be a bitch and flinch?

 

[Handguns4heaRTs]

Ah, yes. Speaking of Instructors- besides being dicks occasionally (they’re not generally known for being warm and fuzzy)- they are extremely talented people who if you hire, will give you a glimpse of your car’s limits!
With my GTI, last year, I was apprehensively lapping around Sebring after having taken a 10 year hiatus. I needed a jolt of inspiration to get me back up to speed and hired the available pro for hire for a session. That GTI was immediately doing things I didn’t know it could do in terms of grip and braking. A true eye opener. He showed me the limits (within reason for the intended application- lapping). Definitely injected a shot of speed and confidence into my laps for the rest of that day! Hiring the pro wasn’t cheap but was a real bargain as compared to track damage!
Over a decade ago I hired a reputable pro for an entire weekend. Talk about an eye opening experience! Took me and my car at the time to our limits! As for limits, for me there’s two types of limits to explore; 1) limits with a roll cage and full safety equipment 2) limits in your street car with a 3pt seatbelt.

It's like watching someone else eff your wife, and her digging it way more than she does with you... but you def learn a few things

 

[tpellegr]

I haven't had any "oh sh--" moments at a race track for cars, but have had plenty at autocross events and in private and rental karts on kart tracks. Here are a few of my greatest hits:

- Snap the back end from throttle lift oversteer and put it backwards into the wall? Check
- Overcook the entry and have to brake in a straight line after turn-in? Check
- Ask for more than 100% of the available traction while trying to learn how to trail brake? Check
- Overcorrect and spin (tankslapping) when getting behind in a high speed slalom? Check

But the beautiful thing about making mistakes (at least the ones you can drive away from) is having the opportunity to learn from them. Ross Bentley's "Speed Secrets" books have really helped me to take in much more sensory input and translate that to awarenesses of the proper racing line and driving at the limit. Do I agree that you need to push yourself to find the limit? Absolutely. But as other have rightly pointed out, best to do so in a safe environment. As one of my favorite autocross instructors was fond of saying, "push harder, suck less".

Regarding track driving, I can't image myself ever heading to a HPDE or track day without first having at least autocross experience. I think it much safer to find the limit in 2nd gear on a wide open paved surface with a bunch of cones. To use a poor analogy, I'd be scared "sh--less" if I bypassed the Cessna and jumped straight into the F-15 for my first solo flight. But, to each his own.

Reading Ultimate Speed Secrets right now and really enjoying it! Lots of great gems in there; finding particularly interesting the section about learning and evaluating tracks and prioritizing corners. Can't wait to get back out on the track.

Also, I totally agree with you about the autocross. I think it is a super helpful way to feel out your car's cornering capabilities. Was definitely a good learning experience for me in the simple mechanics of high performance driving (like looking ahead, two hands on the wheel, steering with the throttle, etc.). Will definitely be doing more of it moving forward. Just found driving road courses so addicting. Once you've had a taste, it is hard to go back.

 

[R Golf]

Sometimes you can't pick the "safest" tracks, or there is a track without much runoff that you really would like to try. In all cases every track I've ever run on has "good places to run off" (if there is such a thing) and bad places. Some have really bad places. If you want to test and raise your limits, do it as Cliff and others mentioned, in small incremental steps getting on the gas earlier or braking later. However, the best places to really push is on the safest turns on whatever track you are running. The learning is the same, but the potential downside is much much less.

For example, if you want to practice your car control at the very limits and trail braking later and later, Big Bend at Lime Rock is a perfect place. Tons of runoff and virtually nothing to hit. (of course I'm assuming you are driving within reason). Trying the same approaching the uphill or before the main straight at the same track is much less of a good idea. Of course you'll need to learn to raise your limits everywhere, but what you will learn from the safe turns can then be applied in the turns with less runoff. Apply it in the tougher turns, again in small increments and you should be fine. Except a very few tracks with no elevation and just nothing to hit, every track I've run on has a similar mix.

I've had well over 100 track days and 7 years of instructing. I've had a number of 2 and 4 wheel offs, but always under control (again reference Cliff's message about how to go off). The only time I ever hit anything was on the downhill at Lime Rock. Went 4 wheels off and thought everything was totally fine except it had rained the night before and the grass was like ice. Did a super slow motion slide ending in a ~5mph impact into the far wall. One reason I never run in the rain anymore.

 

[JackRabbitSLIM]

I crashed my Integra R at Mid Ohio. I got loose and failed to correct quickly enough. The thing I remember most is the embarrassment. Not that people were laughing at me or anything like that, the embarrassment of facing my own driving ability. Don't beat yourself up too much. It's a tough lesson to learn, but a very valuable one once you go through it. You have to fail to get faster, crashing is a tough fail though.

If you haven't autocrossed much, it's a very, very good way to learn to drive fast (if not the best).

If others on here do autocross and are thinking about going to the track, do it! But, when you find yourself frustrated by traffic, chill the f*ck out and don't do anything stupid.

 

[Luva]

If you haven't autocrossed much, it's a very, very good way to learn to drive fast (if not the best).

If others on here do autocross and are thinking about going to the track, do it! But, when you find yourself frustrated by traffic, chill the f*ck out and don't do anything stupid.

Sound advice indeed!

Sorry to hear about your Integra R. One of the best front-driven driver's car ever made, from my vantage.

 

[tpellegr]

The thing I remember most is the embarrassment. Not that people were laughing at me or anything like that, the embarrassment of facing my own driving ability. Don't beat yourself up too much. It's a tough lesson to learn, but a very valuable one once you go through it. You have to fail to get faster, crashing is a tough fail though.

If you haven't autocrossed much, it's a very, very good way to learn to drive fast (if not the best).

Thanks for the post. I can relate. Was definitely a good wake-up call and an excuse to step back and be more thoughtful about my driving. Hoping to get back in the seat quickly. May try to drive a few autocross events before the end of the season if possible just to end things on a good note.

 

[GTI_TRACK_RAT]

This was my worst off in my old Audi S4. I started to slide and instead of staying in the power and letting quattro save me. I let off the gas and got snap oversteer.

 

[Handguns4heaRTs]

This was my worst off in my old Audi S4. I started to slide and instead of staying in the power and letting quattro save me. I let off the gas and got snap oversteer.

What was the damage? And what kind of tires were you running?

 

[Will_]

Also, what speed were you going at the end of that straight?! Seemed like it went on forever

 

[jmblur]

I can vouch for autocross teaching you fast. This was my first real autox run (I had done a couple "learn to autox" events the previous year), but this was my first solo run. No walkthrough, just a quick drive thru in a line, and no instructors due to covid. Oh, and I just installed a new RSB. Didn't catch it quick enough this time.

Luckily it's a big open runway so no concerns about hitting things! Wasn't a problem again (warmer tires didn't hurt either), but a good lesson to take it slow until your tires are warm and you feel out the car.

 

[victorofhavoc]

I've gone off numerous times, but the most terrifying moments have always been when chasing people too closely and having them spin. I always know I should back off and give room, but I always get ambitious...

However, I've learned to always take the opportunity on "safe" corners to push as hard as I possibly can to learn my limits. Often this ends with me in grass or on some concrete side road, but the worst case there is getting a tow back to paddock and maybe some body scrapes.

One of the worst things recently was a cold morning, running the first heat of the day on track, with high humidity, dew on the ground, and I went into a corner I absolutely love at 35mph under my typical, following the warm up parade with absolute confidence! Mid corner, with zero warning, the tail end snapped around and I was facing the person behind me for a moment before sliding 40 or 50 feet in the grass. This was under yellow... I felt like an @$$hat...

 

[tpellegr]

One of the worst things recently was a cold morning, running the first heat of the day on track, with high humidity, dew on the ground, and I went into a corner I absolutely love at 35mph under my typical, following the warm up parade with absolute confidence! Mid corner, with zero warning, the tail end snapped around and I was facing the person behind me for a moment before sliding 40 or 50 feet in the grass. This was under yellow... I felt like an @$$hat...

That is hilarious but also terrifying! Crazy that heat in the tires and track can make that much of a difference.