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Dog Bone on a diesel?

Dr.Ed

New member
Location
The Netherlands
Hi,

Can somebody share experiences, if a (lower) dogbone (insert) is mounted on a MK7 Diesel?

Is it better shifting?
Is there extra noise?

Thanks!

Ed
 

PLF8593

Go Kart Champion
Hi,



Can somebody share experiences, if a (lower) dogbone (insert) is mounted on a MK7 Diesel?



Is it better shifting?

Is there extra noise?



Thanks!



Ed


Powerflex makes a diesel-specific poly dog bone insert that is aimed at minimal NVH with a performance increase, I’d check that. The roc euro bar will also be good, just make sure you use the strongest loctite you have and mark the threads and check every day or two for a few weeks After install. They’ve been known to back out which can lead to transmission housing failure (happened to me)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

sprinks

Drag Race Newbie
Location
United States
Yeah, for a diesel i remember being recommended the softest insert possible, as the NVH increase is more noticeable. BFI used to make one as well for the mk5/mk6.
 

Cuzoe

Ready to race!
Location
Los Angeles
I'm running the powerflex diesel specific mount. I was already running the Diesel Geek Sigma 6 kit and Racesing sphereology weighted shift knob (at stock height) but the shifting now feels notchy in a really good way. Sort of a thunk-thunk into each gear but with light effort. The car now feels as "connected" as my Mk4 which is awesome. So driving impressions... fantastic. I even like the sound of the engine at mid-high rpm now. I typically short shift, just after the car's ridiculous suggestions, but I've been winding it out to 4k+ since the install (even though the CR150 is well out of breath).

Now for the not so good. I have the OEM reinforced skid plate installed and it sits over the bushing that holds the insert. It was causing an annoying noise. Dremel and some sandpaper fixed that (made a rough half circle cut) and is of no concern as the plate is pretty stout. I've only had the insert for about 100 miles so I'm still hoping the vibration comes down. For the first 50ish miles the vibration could be seen in the steering wheel/rear view mirror. I can no longer see the vibration but can definitely feel it still. I could probably get used to it but it won't pass the significant other test, not by a long shot.

I've read here that these inserts break in over the first several hundred miles but these are not on diesels and their inserts start out stiffer than this one. I'll leave it installed for at least 500 miles to see if it the vibration comes down. Maybe through 1,000 miles if I'm noticing a reduction. If it still feels at 500 like it does now it's going to be removed. I love what it does for overall feel but not enough to deal with the vibration. I will then be looking into other options for shift feel (billet shifter bracket mounts, Diesel Geek super pin) but I don't know what can give the "connected" feeling without introducing unwanted vibrations. Not sure it holds true for the diesels but in the VCDS threads it seems idle can only be bumped about 50rpm. On my Mk4 adding a Fluidampr helped with vibration when A/C was running but the 1.8t was doesn't vibrate like a diesel to begin with.
 

Cuzoe

Ready to race!
Location
Los Angeles
Update: driven about 600 miles, it's now okay at normal idle, not great. But running the A/C makes it feel the same as it did at idle right after install. In other words, not acceptable. This time of year in LA I don't need to run HVAC but I'll need it come summer.

My commute is less than 2 miles so I don't normally drive the TDI to work. My wife's commute will be about 80 miles round trip until May. Because she's awesome she has agreed to switch cars with me to try to break in the insert. I get to drive her Model 3 Dual Motor for a month... I suspect my 2 mile commute is going to be longer than 2 miles 😁.

I'll post another update by the end of the month.
 

WhyNotZoidberg?

Ready to race!
Location
Chi-Town
Update: driven about 600 miles, it's now okay at normal idle, not great. But running the A/C makes it feel the same as it did at idle right after install. In other words, not acceptable. This time of year in LA I don't need to run HVAC but I'll need it come summer.

My commute is less than 2 miles so I don't normally drive the TDI to work. My wife's commute will be about 80 miles round trip until May. Because she's awesome she has agreed to switch cars with me to try to break in the insert. I get to drive her Model 3 Dual Motor for a month... I suspect my 2 mile commute is going to be longer than 2 miles 😁.

I'll post another update by the end of the month.
Just to let you know, I put a Powerflex diesel insert in my winter car ('15 TDI Sportwagen), and there's no increase in NVH whatsoever. No one riding in my car can notice it, even after I tell them about it. There was a barely perceptible vibration for maybe 2-3 days/200miles right after I installed it, but nothing nearly as extreme as you're describing.
I suspect your engine/tranny might be slightly misaligned which is known to cause NVH. I'd check the mounts' alignment, downpipe clearance or perhaps something interfering/touching your skid plate.

I also have 034 solid shifter cable bushings and an euro short-shifter, and there is zero vibration that I can feel in my shifter. Again, that's on a diesel car.


In the GTI I had a BFI dogbone insert (my second mod, after the DG Sigma short-shifter) and it added a barely noticeable vibration which had mostly subsided after about 4-500 miles or so; the BFI insert is definitely a much stiffer material than the soft Powerflex Diesel insert.
I removed the BFI when I changed all the mounts to Superpro, which are just amazing; too bad they stopped making them.
 
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Cuzoe

Ready to race!
Location
Los Angeles
Interesting... It's definitely a vibration, as opposed to something interfering/touching. I'm stock emissions wise so there's plenty of downpipe clearance. I'm also stock with regards to engine/transmission mounts with the exception of the insert.

I had zero NVH issues prior to installing the insert. Besides the typical, but minimal, diesel engine sound there was nothing to note in that area. How would my engine/trans have become misaligned and what exactly do you mean by misaligned? Would you suspect it happened during the install of the dogbone insert?

If not during the installation of the insert I would think I should have had some minor NVH issues before, that are now be amplified by the insert. That being said, I also suspect the stock motor/trans mounts would be relatively soft, especially on a diesel.

To be honest I don't expect anyone would find the vibration I'm feeling acceptable. I'm more eager to pull the insert than my wife. Part of the reason she agreed to switch cars with me is so that I get a break from turning wrenches. I tried to explain to her that pulling the insert will take me something like half an hour start to finish but she was having none of it. At the same time everyone says not to get an insert on a diesel. No other user reports until yours to compare to so I figured everyone was right... maybe not. I would love to keep it but the vibration is a no go. It also resonates when the windows are down, downright unbearable.
 

WhyNotZoidberg?

Ready to race!
Location
Chi-Town
Interesting... It's definitely a vibration, as opposed to something interfering/touching. I'm stock emissions wise so there's plenty of downpipe clearance. I'm also stock with regards to engine/transmission mounts with the exception of the insert.

I had zero NVH issues prior to installing the insert. Besides the typical, but minimal, diesel engine sound there was nothing to note in that area. How would my engine/trans have become misaligned and what exactly do you mean by misaligned? Would you suspect it happened during the install of the dogbone insert?

If not during the installation of the insert I would think I should have had some minor NVH issues before, that are now be amplified by the insert. That being said, I also suspect the stock motor/trans mounts would be relatively soft, especially on a diesel.

To be honest I don't expect anyone would find the vibration I'm feeling acceptable. I'm more eager to pull the insert than my wife. Part of the reason she agreed to switch cars with me is so that I get a break from turning wrenches. I tried to explain to her that pulling the insert will take me something like half an hour start to finish but she was having none of it. At the same time everyone says not to get an insert on a diesel. No other user reports until yours to compare to so I figured everyone was right... maybe not. I would love to keep it but the vibration is a no go. It also resonates when the windows are down, downright unbearable.
I had a 2010 Mk6 TDI /6MT that I put a BFI GTI dogbone insert in a couple months after I bought it new, it added a bit of vibrations, and within a week they were mostly gone. For the next 70k miles I drove it until VW bought it back,there was nothing more than the feeling of a clickety diesel engine, which is to say you wouldn't confuse it for a gasoline engine, but it wasn't anything like an old Mercedes.

With my current 2015 TDI /6MT that I bought used (w/ 60k miles, bone-stock), I installed the Powerflex insert, the euro short shifter and the solid cable bushings, and I put on Golf GTE front calipers (same as the non-PP GTI, but painted blue instead of red). A few weeks after all that I let its old owner have a spin in it (he's a bit of a TDI nut, he owns another 2 TDIs) and he noticed the shifter, definitely the brakes (going from 288mm discs and 55mm piston to 312 & 57 is a huge improvement in brake feel), but he didn't notice any NVH from the insert, even after I told him about it.

Both in the old Mk6 TDI and in my 2017 GTI I could sort-of make out a bit of vibrations from the BFI dogbone inserts, if I really focused on it (the GTI doesn't have the insert anymore, as I said in my previous post), but the Powerflex in my current TDI is not noticeable at all.

When I changed all my mounts on the GTI, I started with the engine mount (not ideal, but it's the easiest one to replace and I didn't have much time that day). Because I rushed it, the engine got slightly misaligned which caused some NVH, especially when starting from a stop/engaging the clutch. I believe the BFI insert that was still present at the time caused the engine shift when I replaced the engine mount. The next day I got the car on the lift and looking up from under the car I could see the engine was not perpendicular on the car's front-to-back axis. I had to loosen the 2 front dogbone arm screws,the engine mount screws and have a buddy with a prybar leverage the engine in place while I tightened the mount screws, then the dogbone arm and the big dogbone screw (the one going through the mount & insert).

You can read through this thread, Twist has a good explanation on the engine alignment, since he's done it a bunch of times :)


Watch his video on page 6 in that thread.

I gotta change my oil probably next weekend and I can take some pics from under my TDI if you want to maybe compare with yours. Let me know.
 
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Cuzoe

Ready to race!
Location
Los Angeles
Thanks for the link and explanation, makes sense now. If you could grab some pictures when you're under your car again it would be much appreciated.

I don't have a lift but I've got stands. I may try to get the car up tomorrow and see if there's anything obvious (to my untrained eyes). Will take some pics too.

I would love to keep the insert in. With my current shifter setup it feels great to go through the gears.
 

WhyNotZoidberg?

Ready to race!
Location
Chi-Town
Thanks for the link and explanation, makes sense now. If you could grab some pictures when you're under your car again it would be much appreciated.

I don't have a lift but I've got stands. I may try to get the car up tomorrow and see if there's anything obvious (to my untrained eyes). Will take some pics too.

I would love to keep the insert in. With my current shifter setup it feels great to go through the gears.
I think you should be able to tell if the engine is misaligned just by looking at it from below, you could also use a prybar while you're there to move it around a bit and look/listen for any clunks to figure out what's touching it, but if you want to align it on stands you gotta make sure the car is level (use 4 stands, or stands & ramps).

I'll take some pics next weekend when I'm on the lift.
 

Cuzoe

Ready to race!
Location
Los Angeles
Gotcha... if I'm able to see misalignment of the engine I will have the dealer fix it when I take the car in for the 30k service later this month. I've owned the car since new and haven't touched the engine/trans mounts so if they're not true it came off the line that way. I can't imagine the shop that installed the insert would have any reason to mess with those mounts. Is there any play in the bolt hole for the insert? I would assume not but I haven't pulled that bolt to look.

I checked the torque on the bolt after install and found no issue. I've got the OEM heavy duty skid plate installed and it actually covers half the dogbone insert "area." I dremel-ed a half circle out of to clear that area when I checked the torque on that bolt. I also didn't want to have to drop it to remove the insert; let's call it pre-emptive maintenance. Since I'll have to remove it to look at the engine alignment anyway I'll take the car for a drive with it off to make sure it's not the source of any problems.
 

Cuzoe

Ready to race!
Location
Los Angeles
Tried to grab some pictures but they came out relatively useless. In any case, looking at the pictures and the video and the thread you linked... all of my mounts were in the proper position. Not unexpected as they haven't been messed with.

Pulled the insert out, replaced bolt with the new one I picked up in sad anticipation of this day. I had planned to drive around with the skid plate uninstalled, and maybe even unibrace ubq uninstalled (with the insert still in) but laziness got the best of me. Getting the car up on four stands is a PITA, didn't want to do it twice.

Car is back to being civilized, no vibrations to be felt at all. Drove around with the A/C on, happy to make extended pauses at stop signs just to enjoy it. I can also now roll the windows down without feeling the vibration resonate through the cabin. I thought I might notice the car being slightly less responsive with it uninstalled but I couldn't tell a difference. I've been spoiled in that area by driving my wife's Tesla. It has all the torques at all the wheels all the time, haha.

With the way my vibration resonated through the entire vehicle... is it possible that what was a practically imperceptible increase in vibration (in your experience) was amplified by my having the heavy duty skid plate and the unibrace UBQ installed?
 
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