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Crank walk / class action (we need to get together)

ArrgRer

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
USA
Car(s)
Mk7 VW Golf R
Oh... let me reiterate what a total crap design this is... Can't replace a high wear item with out cutting out pieces of the engine or dropping the entire transmission??? And the mix of torx and multiple triple square sockets is nuts.

Also, had they used a flanged bearing with 360 degrees of surface this would not even be an issue for the beefiest of clutches. Their cost difference would have been a couple of dollars.

Love my R, but geez these type of things are a real turn off.
 

Acadia18

Autocross Champion
Location
The Greater Boston Metropolitan Area
Car(s)
2019 Golf R
why-dont-you-tell-me-how-you-really-feel-tom-ellis.gif


Jokes aside, good job on the repair.
 

JerseyDrew77

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia & NC
Car(s)
2016 TR GTI S 6MT
Oh... let me reiterate what a total crap design this is... Can't replace a high wear item with out cutting out pieces of the engine or dropping the entire transmission??? And the mix of torx and multiple triple square sockets is nuts.

Also, had they used a flanged bearing with 360 degrees of surface this would not even be an issue for the beefiest of clutches. Their cost difference would have been a couple of dollars.

Love my R, but geez these type of things are a real turn off.
Well yes and that's the only solution to preventing it 100%, is to have a 360 design thrust bearing. Iirc, there is a company out in the UK that is designing upgraded thrust bearings but it requires you to ship out your bearings and main cap.

https://prorace-engineering.co.uk/product/2-0tfsi-center-main-cap-thrust-washer-upgrade/
 

wascally wabbitt

Go Kart Champion
Location
Southern Maine (aka Northern Mass)
Car(s)
2017 GTI S
Well yes and that's the only solution to preventing it 100%, is to have a 360 design thrust bearing. Iirc, there is a company out in the UK that is designing upgraded thrust bearings but it requires you to ship out your bearings and main cap.

https://prorace-engineering.co.uk/product/2-0tfsi-center-main-cap-thrust-washer-upgrade/
Seems like you should be able to send them a brand new main cap to modify and install it on your own time, unless I'm missing something?
 

ArrgRer

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
USA
Car(s)
Mk7 VW Golf R
Seems like you should be able to send them a brand new main cap to modify and install it on your own time, unless I'm missing something?
This is true and I considered it but couldn't find OE caps for sale anywhere - even VW Parts doesn't list them on their website. There are billet caps available, but they would need machined as part of a total rebuild.

If anyone knows where to purchase a single OE cap for the center journal, please reply - I would love to have a spare setup.

The other thing that would be nice would be oversized thrust bearings to take up any wear on the crank mating surface over time.
 

PerceivedShift

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia
There cannot be another way without cutting the mid-pan - they may go a step further and tig weld or braze it back in once done. I don't see that mid pan section providing any significant structural value and I'm not worried about it.

Regarding the dial indicator - I have a mount with a strong magnetic base that I just put on the frame rail and arrange the arms so that the plunger is perpendicular to the harmonic damper. Here's a pic with no bearings installed:

View attachment 264304

The pan was off so I just used a large screwdriver to move the crank all the way in (toward the clutch), zero the indicator, and then move it all the way out. I did the same process after installing bearings and spin test but I didn't get a pic. Super easy with the pan off since you can just pry against a journal and a crank counter weight.

I did try to replicate it after putting the pan on, oil in, and run the engine test and it was certainly more difficult to get a good measurement compared to the pan off. Like the guide mentions, I struck it with a large rubber mallet to attempt to move it all the way in, then setup my dial indicator, zeroed it, and used a large screwdriver behind the balancer to pry it out. I didn't have a helper to push the clutch in which may have been a better method. It worked, but wasn't great as I was afraid of prying against the timing chain cover - I'll look for a better pry point next time or get a helper. Either way, you pretty much have to remove the fender liner and washer fluid reservoir to have good access to do the measurement.

I honestly think that it's easier and more accurate to just drop the pan at one of the oil changes to take the measurement. And, yes - getting a baseline for whatever method chosen is most important.

I'll be sure to update here after a week of real driving and at period intervals.

Good luck.
Depressing the clutch might give more consistent results without the pressure plate working against you. Highly recommend trying it with the clutch depressed as it may provide more consistent results. If you don't have a helper, cut a piece of wood to length and jam it between the seat and the clutch pedal. Thankfully my reservoir is on the driver side on my Sport package, so I'll only need to remove the fender liner to access. So far by the looks of it, this may work to monitor thrust bearing wear! Looking forward to updates!

Oh... let me reiterate what a total crap design this is... Can't replace a high wear item with out cutting out pieces of the engine or dropping the entire transmission??? And the mix of torx and multiple triple square sockets is nuts.

Also, had they used a flanged bearing with 360 degrees of surface this would not even be an issue for the beefiest of clutches. Their cost difference would have been a couple of dollars.

Love my R, but geez these type of things are a real turn off.
Agree, this is a bullshit design! What causes the extra wear on some EA888 gen 3s is TBD, I talked to someone who had 170k miles on their Stage 2 2015 manual GTI. Whats your current odometer reading?

Well yes and that's the only solution to preventing it 100%, is to have a 360 design thrust bearing. Iirc, there is a company out in the UK that is designing upgraded thrust bearings but it requires you to ship out your bearings and main cap.

https://prorace-engineering.co.uk/product/2-0tfsi-center-main-cap-thrust-washer-upgrade/
I wonder if it would be possible to installed the other half behind the installed crank? I mean, it looks like it might be possible, but not sure:

1667158382191.png


That's literally what I did...
Maybe I missed it in the origonal post, so you have a full 360 thrust bearing now?
 

ArrgRer

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
USA
Car(s)
Mk7 VW Golf R
Depressing the clutch might give more consistent results without the pressure plate working against you. Highly recommend trying it with the clutch depressed as it may provide more consistent results. If you don't have a helper, cut a piece of wood to length and jam it between the seat and the clutch pedal. Thankfully my reservoir is on the driver side on my Sport package, so I'll only need to remove the fender liner to access. So far by the looks of it, this may work to monitor thrust bearing wear! Looking forward to updates!


Agree, this is a bullshit design! What causes the extra wear on some EA888 gen 3s is TBD, I talked to someone who had 170k miles on their Stage 2 2015 manual GTI. Whats your current odometer reading?


I wonder if it would be possible to installed the other half behind the installed crank? I mean, it looks like it might be possible, but not sure:

View attachment 264346


Maybe I missed it in the origonal post, so you have a full 360 thrust bearing now?

A few posts back - the one with all the pics shows the new lower bearings installed making it 360. Installing a new upper OE bearing is super easy - it just rotates up in those slots. OE bearing doesn't have a tab on it. I'm at 95k miles with 55k of that on a Sachs performance clutch.

Agreed with measuring by pushing the clutch in to measure is a good approach - low fuss and mess... Being consistent on whatever method is what is important to measure the change over time. When it hits that magic limit, swap new bearings in.

When I inspected my worn thrust bearing, it looks like an oiling issue could be contributing to the premature failure. This would also explain why it happens to some owners and not others. I imagine that city driving is worse than rural... More starts after longer off time is worse... etc...
 

JerseyDrew77

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia & NC
Car(s)
2016 TR GTI S 6MT
A few posts back - the one with all the pics shows the new lower bearings installed making it 360. Installing a new upper OE bearing is super easy - it just rotates up in those slots. OE bearing doesn't have a tab on it. I'm at 95k miles with 55k of that on a Sachs performance clutch.

Agreed with measuring by pushing the clutch in to measure is a good approach - low fuss and mess... Being consistent on whatever method is what is important to measure the change over time. When it hits that magic limit, swap new bearings in.

When I inspected my worn thrust bearing, it looks like an oiling issue could be contributing to the premature failure. This would also explain why it happens to some owners and not others. I imagine that city driving is worse than rural... More starts after longer off time is worse... etc...
When I had my block built over a year ago, it was at 82K miles and the thrust bearings looked normal. I replaced them anyways and also added new ones to the bottom half to make it a 360 design. I'd rather be safe than sorry. At the time, I thought about taking them to a local fabricator to see if they could make a solid 360 thrust bearing but the wait time was longer than what I wanted to wait.

Edit: corrected the mileage from 72 to 82. I'm 45 so memory isn't all that great sometimes.
 
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GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
When I had my block built over a year ago, it was at 72K miles and the thrust bearings looked normal. I replaced them anyways and also added new ones to the bottom half to make it a 360 design. I'd rather be safe than sorry. At the time, I thought about taking them to a local fabricator to see if they could make a solid 360 thrust bearing but the wait time was longer than what I wanted to wait.
Which shop did the work?
 

MSH

Drag Racing Champion
Location
Denver
Car(s)
'20 M2 Competition
When I had my block built over a year ago, it was at 72K miles and the thrust bearings looked normal...

Drew, I believe from your build thread you bought your car with 14k on the clock? What is the mileage breakdown (roughly speaking) stock vs tuned/hybrid turbo etc before you built your block @ 72k?
 

JerseyDrew77

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia & NC
Car(s)
2016 TR GTI S 6MT
Drew, I believe from your build thread you bought your car with 14k on the clock? What is the mileage breakdown (roughly speaking) stock vs tuned/hybrid turbo etc before you built your block @ 72k?
Oh man, I would have to go back and look at my receipts that are at home. You are correct with the mileage when I bought it. It had a little over 14K on it and shortly after buying my car I started modding it. I bought my car in the second quarter of 2017 and was the second owner of it. The car came with a Cobb intake and an AWE cbe so the summer of 2017 is when I installed a DP and stage 2 tune. Then late 2018, I believe in November, I bought a Vortex turbo and in February/March timeframe of 2019 I switched to a DBV2 V2 turbo. For mileage, I need to look at my receipts from the shop that installed the turbos and correction on the mileage for when I built my block; it was done at 82, not 72.
 

MSH

Drag Racing Champion
Location
Denver
Car(s)
'20 M2 Competition
Oh man, I would have to go back and look at my receipts that are at home. You are correct with the mileage when I bought it. It had a little over 14K on it and shortly after buying my car I started modding it. I bought my car in the second quarter of 2017 and was the second owner of it. The car came with a Cobb intake and an AWE cbe so the summer of 2017 is when I installed a DP and stage 2 tune. Then late 2018, I believe in November, I bought a Vortex turbo and in February/March timeframe of 2019 I switched to a DBV2 V2 turbo. For mileage, I need to look at my receipts from the shop that installed the turbos and correction on the mileage for when I built my block; it was done at 82, not 72.
Thanks Drew I appreciate the detail. Bottom line....it sounds like it has been modded/tuned for the vast majority of it's life and I'm sure those miles haven't been easy miles! I think on mine (assuming I keep it for foreseeable future) I'd be too paranoid to wait until 82k to build the engine but it is nice to hear of an example like yours going that long before it was done. Just shows you how robust these engines are if well taken care of but even then I know its a roll of the dice no matter what
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
Opens door, lobs in grenade...

What oil and weight is everyone using?
 
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