APR Stage 3 IS20 - Misfires/EPC only in 3rd gear 6000RPM 09G AT

[odessa.filez]

Highish trim levels, I don"t know enough to answer what's too high. George originally cautioned about keeping below 40. Flash tunes seem to cap lower, ones I've seen here and around are in low 20s.

When IAT gets hot under stress (for me, repeated autocross runs can push iat well above 130) my trims, normally stable in mid 30 around 5+ k rpm, can suddenly spike above 50. I don't know how much danger I'm approaching, but I've had power cuts basically spoil my run. Bought the ARM IC hoping it will tame some of that.

 

[danbfree]

Highish trim levels, I don"t know enough to answer what's too high. George originally cautioned about keeping below 40. Flash tunes seem to cap lower, ones I've seen here and around are in low 20s.

When IAT gets hot under stress (for me, repeated autocross runs can push iat well above 130) my trims, normally stable in mid 30 around 5+ k rpm, can suddenly spike above 50. I don't know how much danger I'm approaching, but I've had power cuts basically spoil my run. Bought the ARM IC hoping it will tame some of that.

So, the take away I got on trims is that is the one way we can add fuel with a JB4 and why full tunes you see it cap out at 25, which is the max normal, it's above 25 with JB4 in which fuel is being added but tunes add it elsewhere. Again, in my case that log you referred to was when I was running e25 and it took that to even barely hit 20psi, which was still well below targets. Again, I don't get it, but my car just doesn't like JB4 alone for some reason, and it's so rare that I was basically told I had some kind of hardware issue but then I tried a flash tune and I'm hitting well into the 20's for psi and meeting targets no prob... Also I do have an intercooler arriving soon, that will definitely help in the summer for sure!

So yeah, still have to think on what I'm gonna do, on one hand I can keep the APR tune and use the JB4 to tame it a bit up top to avoid issues or I can do the whole refund and go with Reflect thing. Since I have time to decide I need to put this all on hold a few days as I get thru my condensed work week and decide more next week. I sincerely appreciate everyone's thoughts, but more than likely I will be going with Reflect, it's just a matter of time of when I get the process going.

 

[StorableComa]

So interesting update on the 09G misfire on WOT 3 to 4 shift. After logging the 2nd patch yesterday I played around with my JB4 to start building a new map 6. Confirmed outside of the logs that still no misfire in 3 to 4 at WOT in D or S with the boost peaking at 20-21ish and dropping to 14 before shift. So perhaps boost isn't the whole story? Hopefully IE will let me know what they changed for the fix.

1:
https://datazap.me/u/storablecoma/i...-6?log=0&data=1-4-9-11-18-25-26-27-28&solo=11
2:
https://datazap.me/u/storablecoma/iestg191octv102jb4-map-6-log-2?log=0&data=1-4

Looks like I may need to tweak fueling a little bit below 3500 RPM or dial back my 3000 settings. FB and FOL 0ed out completely on these logs.

 

[danbfree]

So interesting update on the 09G misfire on WOT 3 to 4 shift. After logging the 2nd patch yesterday I played around with my JB4 to start building a new map 6. Confirmed outside of the logs that still no misfire in 3 to 4 at WOT in D or S with the boost peaking at 20-21ish and dropping to 14 before shift. So perhaps boost isn't the whole story? Hopefully IE will let me know what they changed for the fix.

1:
https://datazap.me/u/storablecoma/i...-6?log=0&data=1-4-9-11-18-25-26-27-28&solo=11
2:
https://datazap.me/u/storablecoma/iestg191octv102jb4-map-6-log-2?log=0&data=1-4

Looks like I may need to tweak fueling a little bit below 3500 RPM or dial back my 3000 settings. FB and FOL 0ed out completely on these logs.

I see where you took the too conservative IE tune and did an additive, but not sure why you think it's not the boost when that's exactly what is happening is a taper down in boost on the top end, doing that, when APR didn't, is what resolved my issues, in my case I think I set my boost at 19 for 5500 and 16 for 6000 and beyond to resolve... Also, the issue, for me anyway, is before the 3-4 shift itself, with the default APR tune I get stumble starting at 5700 and EPC at just 6000 when auto shift doesn't occur until over 6400.

And yeah, your AFR's are a touch lean down low that you mention, but your trims are good there so try maybe a 10 FB at 2000, 2500 and 3000 and see if that improves your AFR's... Interesting in how the strategies between 2 companies are different!

 

[danbfree]

Just a quick update, my WGA has bitten the dust, it's completely frozen... I can tap it with a rubber mallet and it resets but instantly EPC's the second I give it any throttle... So, I need to swap the WGA from my stock IS12 over and in the meantime, I did have the shop flash me back to my original 91 octane/aftermarket DP tune and in S mode even with about 1 psi max boost while under EPC the added timing is getting me off the line reasonably well, I just have ZERO passing power once up to speed but it will get me to work these next couple of days this way... So, time to research how to swap the WGA and also do my intercooler and charge pipes myself. The shop I got the APR tune at has very cool and knowledgeable techs but does charge a full $150/hr and my $80/hr shop is flakey about getting back to me, so time to ante up, use my 3 days off and my girlfriends double wide garage and stay over there a couple of days and get it all knocked out this Mon-Tues!

 

[TwinDad]

Just going to throw it out there. My sportwagen with the 09g would spin the tires on the 2-3 shift and shift third to fourth at full throttle and no issues. Reflect Tuning

 

[danbfree]

Just going to throw it out there. My sportwagen with the 09g would spin the tires on the 2-3 shift and shift third to fourth at full throttle and no issues. Reflect Tuning

TL;DR - I hadn't checked in with you guys/John specifically for a while, so sorry for the length of this, I just need to put it all out there where I'm at right now and I may be giving up and getting another car...

So, you having no probs, this is why that once I fix the WGA, if I still have the upper RPM probs then I'm prob gonna get rid of the car... Honestly, I paid some early 20's kid to do my turbo, he was at least established in the local VAG community of being a true enthusiast for his age and overall he did fine but left bolts out here and there and I just have a bad feeling about this, I even noticed cyl 4 coil pack wire connection is thinner than the other 3 with a larger diameter circular ring to tighten down so I think he busted that one in doing my new step colder plugs at the same time as the turbo and DP install but I'm thinking I'm just unlucky with the WGA failing. Getting the last T30 out trying all kinds of tools with my tools split across two different garages and ordering bits from Amazon, completely disconnecting my DP to try to create more clearance has literally tried my patience and even mental health at points, LOL. I had to take a rideshare to get back to my GF house with the rest of my tools finally, but now I think I'll be able to get to it finally with a 1/4" drive T30 socket with 2" extension and a universal joint on the ratchet should get me the angle I need, I'll find out here in a few hours.

So, regarding the tune, the dealer I got my APR tune from is pretty famous and they had an 09g IS38 Golf 1.8 and had none of the issues I've had with an APR tune. He said something to the effect "I had the same exact setup as you (1.8/09G Golf) with an IS38 and the APR tune was great, with none of these problems that you're having, they even somehow max out the stock fueling perfectly with the IS38". So, and I could be totally wrong, I admit I'm just making a semi-educated guess here, but I don't *necessarily* feel Ian/Reflect does anything special other than taper the boost more up top like I did with the JB4 to make finicky cars like mine "09G compatible", and the way he refuses to even remotely *hint* at how he does it has me leaning towards something as simple as upper RPM boost taper. Do you have any old Reflect logs to compare, John? If so, that's totally fine, he deserves all the money from enthusiasts with the 09G, he knows how to get great power out of it as long as it's his stage 2 or higher, so he has his market niche, but my dealer isn't the only one with APR/09G/1.8 having no issues either, so who knows if a special 09g tune is supposed to be needed but it could be certain trans revisions or things like spark and WGA that have to be working flawlessly, who's to say for sure? From what I gather, APR obviously uses a lot of boost so an intercooler is literally a *must* and I have one to go in but if replacing the WGA doesn't solve this high RPM issue the car is getting traded in. I am gonna check cyl 2&3 plugs since that is where the errors were occurring, I may have gapped them wrong or something but I've also replaced the coil packs already and they didn't help, as far as I could tell before the WGA bit the dust. But I'm not gonna rack my brain like I have with this one...last... freaking.... T30 to get the bad WGA out, I just need to move on. My finances are better for sure than they were when I got the Golf almost 2 years ago now and it may be time to move up, then I'd have to decide to return to stock turbo/DP, get money back from APR and sell the performance parts or what.... sigh.

So, I'm looking at everything from an '18 A3 Quattro 6 speed DQ250 DSG with Sport Package (sport seats, S mode, DCC, paddle shifters, lower suspension, etc. factory) and put an IS38 on it, a '19 Jetta GLI Autobahn with the 7 speed DG381 and also put an IS38 on it or even a new '22 GTI S, with at least 2 knobs and no unlit slider for volume but also get the goodies like VAQ diff, digital dash, heated seats/wheel, the base model only lacks DCC as far as performance, but that's no big deal at all.... Decisions, decisions, but at least I'm to the point that things will be decided soon!

 

[danbfree]

So, IS20 couldn't be saved, the WGA bolt literally would not come out, it was like it was welded on... Put stock turbo back in, downgraded tune to APR stage 1 and I'm done with this car. New MK8 GTI arrives late May to early June! No markup, just had to put $500 deposit down.

I do have to say, the APR stage 1 is pretty nice, same power my new GTI will come with stock. Boost hits fast and hard, 20psi tapers 10psi by 6300, pulls all the way to 7200 surprisingly smooth, no EPC's or anything.

 

[odessa.filez]

I do have to say, the APR stage 1 is pretty nice, same power my new GTI will come with stock. Boost hits fast and hard, 20psi tapers 10psi by 6300, pulls all the way to 7200 surprisingly smooth, no EPC's or anything.

Which octane did you downgrade to?

 

[danbfree]

Which octane did you downgrade to?

Same 91 octane I was trying to use with stage 3 IS20... The way APR tunes work, all fuel grades have high boost, the fuel grade determines low end timing, so what I noticed is the 91 felt so much better off the line than the 87 I tried temporarily. In fact, when the WGA died on my IS20 and I had almost no boost at all in limp mode I still was able to drive decently in S mode on the trans having that timing to get going.

 

[danbfree]

Well, I'll conclude this thread for now by summarizing my thoughts on the APR stage 1 tune now that I had to downgrade, and have used my JB4 in Map 0 to monitor/log how it works and now even "stacking" a bit with Map 6. Keep in mind I should be trading this in or selling it in about 6 weeks

So, now on Stage 1 IS12 91 octane, I accidently had my JB4 set to 20psi for my fail safe, after I set it to 25 the APR tune is peaking at a full 22.1psi on a 91 tune, which surprised me a bit for that low of octane. Even running Map 0 for logging/monitoring, that lower section of options below the boost curve settings apply to map 0 too and I had forgot about that. If I was keeping this car, I'd get the intercooler and charge pipes I have siting here installed, IAT's can get out of control with APR when it's not cold out. But, also, for a straight up flash tune, Unitronic still sells a Stage 2 that is better than this that I could run, but with my intake mods and DP it at least maxes out the APR stage 1 nicely. It's *really* punchy, in D mode when you give it that good 1/4 throttle to get it to kick down, it really jumps out. I know I'm easily making the 285lb/ft the stage 1 claims, maybe a little more with stage 2 mods. I tried to get some 0-60 and 1/4mile with my Dragy, it was just too cold and damp and got no traction but I'll practice launches until it gets traded in, hehe. The APR tune does allow brake boosting, so it's prob possible to launch this pretty good with good traction, but I don't want to break it before I trade it in. But as far as that peak boost, it doesn't last long and starts tapering off pretty fast after 4500RPM, all the way down to 8psi by 6300RPM, but they do progressively add a nice amount of timing, up to about 22 degrees up top it looks like, to keep you pulling pretty smooth all the way to the 6500 shift point while keeping the throttle buried on the 09G. To that end, I felt that the boost dropped a little bit too much at the top, and I have "near 93" underrated 92 octane here, so I figured I'd try a simple additive Map 6 stack. I kept all the fuel stuff at 0 and just added 1psi from 1500 up to 5500 and from there added 2psi from 5500-6500 to help it keep pulling to the shift point. Even with this just 1psi added down low, light throttle response under D mode is improved and it does pull stronger up top too. Trims never exceed mid 30's, AFR's look great. If I was keeping the car, I'd continue to stack when I have decent fuel, but would be getting the IC and charge pipes in by summer as IAT's climb pretty quick with that much boost.

So, bottom-line as far as this thread, it looks like I got an IS20 with a WGA that was already ready to fail or something so once it did go completely I was never able to determine my probs with the IS20 stage 3 tune were, who knows, a fresh WGA maybe could have fixed the issue or do nothing at all to help. We'll never know as I was tried of dealing with it, I had to get back on the road that day. Otherwise I could have had a machine shop get that screw out or get another IS20 from LKQ for $375 and tried to make the IS20 setup work. But, at the same time, I found out I can get a MK8 GTI for no markup and able to fit it into my budget sealed the deal. A waste of ~$1500 to end up back on stock turbo and with a real flash tune that has enough power to be happy with for a while that I could have had all along... sigh.