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IS20 87octane JB4 or APR?

llibgrebnek

Ready to race!
okay so I read several claims here about LSPI and octane. Can you please back them up with authority?

can anyone point to evidence that APR's 87 tune is riskier than say, the stock tune on a 1.8t?

Most of what I've found so far seems to point to oil.

I get the idea that some prefer to be cautious given the possible severity of loss.

But given all this hand wringing, why would anyone tune on any octane level?



So, on the topic of LSPI (I am directly involved in combustion research on the topic)...

Two normal events have to come together to create an LSPI event - preignition and knock. Knock can ONLY occur after the spark and preignition can occur anytime.

Preignition is a slower heat release than standard combustion that can be promoted by many things, migrated oil droplets in the combustion chamber are but one possible source.

When preignition begins, the heat release creates a pressure rise in the cylinder which can influence an otherwise benign engine speed/load point into knocking. Even if the engine does not experience knock, it will experience cylinder pressures which exceed design limits.

Now, if knocking does occur, due to the onset of a PI event, EVEN with high octane fuel, that is where stuff breaks in one or two combustion cycles. That is sometimes referred to as megaknock, when the statistical worst of PI and knock come together. That is why an otherwise sound engine suddenly goes boom one day. Nothing changed but statistics caught up with it...strong PI met up with moderate knock.

PI (manifest in LSPI) can result from oil droplets which make it past the rings into combustion chamber, partially or completely unvolatilized fuel components which act like diesel combustion and spontaneously combust, combustion chamber deposits flying across the chamber acting as glow plugs, fuel and oil additives such as calcium, higher carbon aromatics...and others.

It is a topic of great research and growing understanding. Theoretically, high enough octane can minimize megaknock events, by removing the knock portion of the equation, but high octane can come from sources which promote LSPI such as aromatics, and oxygenates like ethanol.

Ethanol has a higher laminar flame speed than gasoline so is prone to PI (flex fuel cars can experience this). But combine it with other factors, and the tendency for LSPI can increase. An example - ethanol is higher octane than most gasoline components, but also has higher latent heat, so it cools the combustion chamber more effectively. Good thing, no? Yes and no. The “no” part is that the cooled chamber then inhibits higher boiling point fuel components from volatilizing, thus INCREASING LSPI chances. But if enough ethanol is added, (like >E50) then sufficient energy is removed from the chamber to hinder larger heat release from PI AND the octane is much higher as well.

Interesting topic, and in a nutshell, a safety factor is a great idea. Best safety factor is to run water injection (not water meth) as water has very high phase change heat and also transforms the particulate matter nature and provides a greater number of crankshaft degrees over which heat release is spread. If leaner A/F and optimal spark timing are employed as part of the water injection, more power, efficiency AND safety may be realized.


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odessa.filez

Autocross Champion
Location
Roswell, GA
Car(s)
2016 GSW 1.8tsi auto
thank you
So, on the topic of LSPI (I am directly involved in combustion research on the topic)...

Two normal events have to come together to create an LSPI event - preignition and knock. Knock can ONLY occur after the spark and preignition can occur anytime.

Preignition is a slower heat release than standard combustion that can be promoted by many things, migrated oil droplets in the combustion chamber are but one possible source.

When preignition begins, the heat release creates a pressure rise in the cylinder which can influence an otherwise benign engine speed/load point into knocking. Even if the engine does not experience knock, it will experience cylinder pressures which exceed design limits.

Now, if knocking does occur, due to the onset of a PI event, EVEN with high octane fuel, that is where stuff breaks in one or two combustion cycles. That is sometimes referred to as megaknock, when the statistical worst of PI and knock come together. That is why an otherwise sound engine suddenly goes boom one day. Nothing changed but statistics caught up with it...strong PI met up with moderate knock.

PI (manifest in LSPI) can result from oil droplets which make it past the rings into combustion chamber, partially or completely unvolatilized fuel components which act like diesel combustion and spontaneously combust, combustion chamber deposits flying across the chamber acting as glow plugs, fuel and oil additives such as calcium, higher carbon aromatics...and others.

It is a topic of great research and growing understanding. Theoretically, high enough octane can minimize megaknock events, by removing the knock portion of the equation, but high octane can come from sources which promote LSPI such as aromatics, and oxygenates like ethanol.

Ethanol has a higher laminar flame speed than gasoline so is prone to PI (flex fuel cars can experience this). But combine it with other factors, and the tendency for LSPI can increase. An example - ethanol is higher octane than most gasoline components, but also has higher latent heat, so it cools the combustion chamber more effectively. Good thing, no? Yes and no. The “no” part is that the cooled chamber then inhibits higher boiling point fuel components from volatilizing, thus INCREASING LSPI chances. But if enough ethanol is added, (like >E50) then sufficient energy is removed from the chamber to hinder larger heat release from PI AND the octane is much higher as well.

Interesting topic, and in a nutshell, a safety factor is a great idea. Best safety factor is to run water injection (not water meth) as water has very high phase change heat and also transforms the particulate matter nature and provides a greater number of crankshaft degrees over which heat release is spread. If leaner A/F and optimal spark timing are employed as part of the water injection, more power, efficiency AND safety may be realized.


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Gro Harlem

Ready to race!
Location
Gambrills, MD
idk why you all are ragging on the OP so much about asking this question. I would be interested also in an 87-octane IS20 tune and if you look at the APR links posted above their site clearly says they have 87 IS20 tunes, two of them: oem dp and aftermarket dp.

Why would I be so insane to want such a thing? Why the hell did i buy a golf over a GTI? Other than the wagon body style, the fuel economy was a determining factor for me after owning a 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI that was bought back from the scandal. When looking at what car to replace it with I realized the new 1.8TSI motor was designed with 87 octane in mind. The first turbo VW motor that didn't require 91 octane and still has great tuning potential? Sign me up!

So yea I would see getting the IS20 87 tune from APR and stacking a JB4 in the event you want to squeeze more out when running 93 octane. When you don't care about having power / long road trips / etc you can always feel peace of mind knowing you can go back to 87 if need be.
 

PLF8593

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Philly
Car(s)
19 Alltrack 6MT
So, on the topic of LSPI (I am directly involved in combustion research on the topic)...

Two normal events have to come together to create an LSPI event - preignition and knock. Knock can ONLY occur after the spark and preignition can occur anytime.

Preignition is a slower heat release than standard combustion that can be promoted by many things, migrated oil droplets in the combustion chamber are but one possible source.

When preignition begins, the heat release creates a pressure rise in the cylinder which can influence an otherwise benign engine speed/load point into knocking. Even if the engine does not experience knock, it will experience cylinder pressures which exceed design limits.

Now, if knocking does occur, due to the onset of a PI event, EVEN with high octane fuel, that is where stuff breaks in one or two combustion cycles. That is sometimes referred to as megaknock, when the statistical worst of PI and knock come together. That is why an otherwise sound engine suddenly goes boom one day. Nothing changed but statistics caught up with it...strong PI met up with moderate knock.

PI (manifest in LSPI) can result from oil droplets which make it past the rings into combustion chamber, partially or completely unvolatilized fuel components which act like diesel combustion and spontaneously combust, combustion chamber deposits flying across the chamber acting as glow plugs, fuel and oil additives such as calcium, higher carbon aromatics...and others.

It is a topic of great research and growing understanding. Theoretically, high enough octane can minimize megaknock events, by removing the knock portion of the equation, but high octane can come from sources which promote LSPI such as aromatics, and oxygenates like ethanol.

Ethanol has a higher laminar flame speed than gasoline so is prone to PI (flex fuel cars can experience this). But combine it with other factors, and the tendency for LSPI can increase. An example - ethanol is higher octane than most gasoline components, but also has higher latent heat, so it cools the combustion chamber more effectively. Good thing, no? Yes and no. The “no” part is that the cooled chamber then inhibits higher boiling point fuel components from volatilizing, thus INCREASING LSPI chances. But if enough ethanol is added, (like >E50) then sufficient energy is removed from the chamber to hinder larger heat release from PI AND the octane is much higher as well.

Interesting topic, and in a nutshell, a safety factor is a great idea. Best safety factor is to run water injection (not water meth) as water has very high phase change heat and also transforms the particulate matter nature and provides a greater number of crankshaft degrees over which heat release is spread. If leaner A/F and optimal spark timing are employed as part of the water injection, more power, efficiency AND safety may be realized.


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thank you

double thank you
 

Armchair Racer

Go Kart Champion
Location
Florida
I'd consider the APR 87 tune in a cold climate but not in South Texas like the OP. South Texas heat + 87 octane isn't worth the risk to save a couple hundred bucks a year in fuel costs.

I have a 2017 SW 4Motion that's bone stock except for the IS20 and APR 93 tune. It runs 12.9 @ 105 in the 1/4 mile (although slightly slower in the summer heat down here in Southern FL). I got my IS20 with only 200 miles on it for $300 shipped on eBay. I think stock these cars run mid 15's at around 89-90. Talk about bang for the buck! :D
 

mk7_gsw

New member
Location
Socal
I don't get why you're willing to go IS20- JB4, but then cheap out on gas? Boggles the mind. You shouldn't be modding anything if your going to run the cheapest, lowest octane available. Silliness really. Spend a few more $$$ for the higher octane to go along with your mods.


If you drive as much as i do and in Cali where 91 currently is $4.19 a gal and 87 is $3.81 that adds up quick when your burning through 70~ gallons of gas a month, that's $26.60 x 12 months that's $319.20 if you do that for 2 years it pays for the APR tune itself or the saved money can go towards a intercooler. If the tune is specifically for 87 then you aint running the risk of messing anything up. Think like this, is the extra 7 or so hp worth paying a extra $319 a year? To me it aint.
 

ZuMBLe

Autocross Champion
Location
NY
Car(s)
Alltrack 6MT
And that 7 hp is only valid on a dyno. Will it matter for day to day merging on the highway? Probably not. Will it matter when doing a spirited run against another car in Mexico? Probably not. Installing an IC with the saved money is probably better in the long run if you can do the install yourself and save shop costs.



If you drive as much as i do and in Cali where 91 currently is $4.19 a gal and 87 is $3.81 that adds up quick when your burning through 70~ gallons of gas a month, that's $26.60 x 12 months that's $319.20 if you do that for 2 years it pays for the APR tune itself or the saved money can go towards a intercooler. If the tune is specifically for 87 then you aint running the risk of messing anything up. Think like this, is the extra 7 or so hp worth paying a extra $319 a year? To me it aint.
 

mk7_gsw

New member
Location
Socal
And that 7 hp is only valid on a dyno. Will it matter for day to day merging on the highway? Probably not. Will it matter when doing a spirited run against another car in Mexico? Probably not. Installing an IC with the saved money is probably better in the long run if you can do the install yourself and save shop costs.




And that i did....installed it last week as a matter of fact :p I do not have a tun e yet though, i was merely prepping myself for one...
 

mk7_gsw

New member
Location
Socal
Now here is the million dollar question, IF i were to do a 87 tune, does the APR take advantage of the higher octane fuel like the factory ECU does? I noticed with the factory ECU going from 87 to 91 doesn't affect boost much but however timing seems more happy with 91, because the car feels much more peppy to go (not really faster but just more eager). This enables me to have a fall back, when i do long trips and the engine is mostly cruising 80mph i don't need to be burning premium gas id rock 87, but if i am planning doing some spirited driving or track would i see any advantage at all using say a 89 or 91 gas on a APR tune for 87? Just not sure if the car responds in a way like the factory rom does.
 

Sumfuncomet

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Severomorsk, Russia
Car(s)
2018 Mercedes E63 S
Because I don’t trust gas!

I got a 91 tune as its middle of the road. 87 is crap gas, it is NOT performance fuel. Call Nelson Racing Engines or Becks Engine Services and ask them if they will build you an 87 octane performance engine.......no way. Actually they would say to you, why spend money on a performance tune and cripple it with low octane swill?
I think this is a dumb thread. Economy car, economy tune, economy results.
 

JCAT

New member
Location
CT
Then why didn't you get a 93 tune? We don't have 93 here in Cali, even if we did it would probably be like $4.85 a gallon.

I did the same thing. Run a 91 tune but fill up with 93. I like having the extra error margin in case of a bad tank of gas or something and I also want to be able to take the car out of state without having to worry about finding 93 wherever I go. To me, the marginal increase in power from a 91 to 93 octane tune isn't worth the piece of mind and versatility I get from the 91 tune. If the choice is really between more mods or better fuel... better fuel wins every time in my book.
 

ZuMBLe

Autocross Champion
Location
NY
Car(s)
Alltrack 6MT
I don't think this is a dumb thread. I think people who want to run a 87 tune are NOT looking to turn their cars in to track cars or dyno queens. Many people (myself included) don't mind leaving some power on the table for safety of their daily driver. If anyone reading this wants to say, "If you're going to run 87 why tune the car!!" To those people, please refer to APRs 87 Stage 1 graph and compare to the stock graph.


mk7_gsw,

I wonder how much the tunes adapt also. I've been reading up a lot in the JB4 threads because people post logs of their tunes. It seems the ECUs are very good at watching for knock and will continue to advance timing until it sees a bit of knock, then backs off. Now, I'm not sure what the timing advance limits are. Is there a table which limits how much the ECU can advance? Is the ECU so good that it starts with a base but keeps advancing until it sees possible knock? George at BMS told me the car does an octane check when you start the car and then picks a timing table from that?

It's very possible the timing, and to a point, AFR is not really an issue with these motors/ECUs. The difference between a 87 tune and a 93 tune may just be boost levels and curve.

I got a 91 tune as its middle of the road. 87 is crap gas, it is NOT performance fuel. Call Nelson Racing Engines or Becks Engine Services and ask them if they will build you an 87 octane performance engine.......no way. Actually they would say to you, why spend money on a performance tune and cripple it with low octane swill?
I think this is a dumb thread. Economy car, economy tune, economy results.
 
Last edited:

PLF8593

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Philly
Car(s)
19 Alltrack 6MT
I did the same thing. Run a 91 tune but fill up with 93. I like having the extra error margin in case of a bad tank of gas or something and I also want to be able to take the car out of state without having to worry about finding 93 wherever I go. To me, the marginal increase in power from a 91 to 93 octane tune isn't worth the piece of mind and versatility I get from the 91 tune. If the choice is really between more mods or better fuel... better fuel wins every time in my book.

i am of this same mindset. good thinking.
 
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