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Whose Stage II, then?

tortoise

tortoise

Ready to race!
Location
MA
demi9od said:
I thought an APR with the right spacer would not throw a cell on Stage1/JB4, allowing you to have you cake and eat it too.
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My understanding is that spacers can lead to fueling issues. Beyond that, I'm personally opposed to cutting corners to evade the law.

Massachusetts' excessive regs annoy me and I look forward to moving out of state as soon as the kids are done with school. In the meantime, so long as I choose to live here, I feel compelled to live by the rules.
 
Hoon

Hoon

Autocross Champion
Location
Rhode Island
tortoise said:
My understanding is that spacers can lead to fueling issues. Beyond that, I'm personally opposed to cutting corners to evade the law.

Massachusetts' excessive regs annoy me and I look forward to moving out of state as soon as the kids are done with school. In the meantime, so long as I choose to live here, I feel compelled to live by the rules.
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You must be a shooter.
 
Cliff p.

Cliff p.

Drag Racing Champion
Location
El Paso, TX
Car(s)
'17 Golf R DSG
tortoise said:
As I understand it, o2 spacers can cause fueling problems (mixture too rich, etc).

Also, not to be goody-two-shoes or anything, but I’d feel like I was cheating. But that’s just me, and I understand why others might arrive at a different conclusion.
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Removing the secondary o2 sensor (downstream sensor) from the direct exhaust stream "tricks" the ECM into thinking there is still a catalytic converter. The downstream sensor on almost every modern vehicle is used to sanity check, or ensure the efficiency of the catalytic converter. If the downstream reports lower concentrations of oxygen/gas ratios than the upstream o2 sensor, then it usually does not result in a malfunction indication.


Hoon said:
Both the primary and secondary sensors are used for fueling calculations on MK7s.

Removing the secondary from the exhaust stream, while effective, is a bit of a hack job.
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I'd be interested to know where you got the information for the secondary o2 sensor being used specifically for fueling calculations? This would be the first vehicle I've ever toyed with that used the downstream o2 sensor for anything other than what I have mentioned.



Unless VW has done something new with the MK7, the primary (upstream) o2 sensor is the lambda sensor, meaning it's a 5-wire wideband sensor. The secondary (downstream) o2 sensor is a 4-wire o2 sensor. It cannot provide feedback to the ECM beyond catalytic converter efficiency thresholds.



Basically, the rear o2 sniffs the mixture and says to replace the catalytic converter because it's not reducing emissions effectively, triggering the MIL. This is why we remove it from the stream. Not really a hack job, if you're running a catless exhaust.
 
Cliff p.

Cliff p.

Drag Racing Champion
Location
El Paso, TX
Car(s)
'17 Golf R DSG
For whatever reason, I cannot edit my post with this stupid browser. I should also state that yes, for vehicles equipped with dual 4 wire O2 sensors (upstream and downstream non-wideband sensors), the downstream sensor will play checks and balances with the upstream sensor.



I haven't seen an upstream non-wideband sensor in use since the mid 2000's though.
 
O

OBP

Go Kart Newbie
Location
ChiRaq
tortoise said:
Good advice all around. I’ll check out MAPerformance. I’ll have to research GESI a bir further but, as I understand it, GESI makes several different grades of cat. Sometimee “you get what you pay for” but other times you just pay because they see you coming, so with that in mind, might you have any idea what accounts for the difference in price between MAPerformance and AWE?
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The euro6 compliant HJC cat used in the AWE is more expensive than the GESI cat (which I believe is Euro5 compliant, but works well enough if in the stock location).

Other than sizing, there's really only one type of GESI. I think vibrant makes them and they offer different levels of cats.
 
MiamiBourne

MiamiBourne

Go Kart Champion
Location
South Florida
Car(s)
2016 6MT Golf R Oryx
tortoise said:
Here in Massachusetts, we have an annual vehicular proctology exam that drives otherwise law-abiding folks to register their cars in South Dakota.

If you install the APR catted downpipe, you're going to pull a CEL on a Stage I tune and then you're in for it. The only way to get around that is by uninstalling your APR downpipe and reinstalling the OEM downpipe prior to your automotive bend-over at your local inspection station.

Speaking for myself, no thanks. Which means, I guess, I'll be looking at the AWE catted (and resonated, just because) downpipe.

And before you gag at the idea of spending $1100 on, well, a pipe, remember this: I live in Massachusetts, so it's just kind of another tax. This time on fun.

With that out of the way, there's the question of the tune.

Currently, I'm APR high torque, 93-octane Stage I. So why wouldn't I just cough up the $175 for APR's Stage II?

Maybe because APR seems to be running a bit of a...well, for a lack of a better word...racket on its Stage II tune. Yes, the tune shifts the torque curve and a bit to the left but, really, isn't its primary achievement shutting off those pesky O2 sensors that throw check engine lights all over your dash? Check engine lights that wouldn't light off in the first place if it offered a decent cat?

In other words, would it be reductive to say that they give you "for free" a Stage II tune that basically disguises the fact that the catalytic converter in their pipe isn't exactly OEM-level?

So if I'm going for the AWE dp, with its robust (and expensive) cat, why would I spend money on a tune that primarily switches off 02 sensors that won't bedevil it anyway?

Am I misunderstanding something here?

And in that case, what kind of stage II tune should I get?

Included in this tune is an upgraded (APR) intercooler, (APR) cai (about which I am suspicious as to its utility).

My understanding is that stock exhaust will be just fine.

Oh, and I'm driving a 2018 m7.5 R 6MT.

Nominations, anyone?
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The AWE Resonated DP used to be $1185 this time last year...they have gone up since then are now are on sale for $1423 for their one time holiday sale. I think it ends on 12/31. They went up...probably the price on the HJS cat went up. Who knows but I regret not buying last year.

I'm UM tuned w/LC & NLS for 6MT. A few people with UM also had emission concerns and in talks with UM it seems you can use their 'Like Stage 1 file' with a DP if you want the readiness set like stock. UM doesn't use stages and tunes on PSI and Octane. If you wanted a DP file to code out the CEL with them they don't charge anything like APR would.

My tune is at 28psi boost & 93oct with a stock DP since April and I just added the AWE Resonated DP this past Sunday.

No issues so far and the car pulls harder now for sure. Someone on here mentioned to watch out for overboost...I did hit 30psi in 3rd gear recently and before I was only able to hit that in 4th with more load. So maybe I'll get the boost dialed in a little lower. I guess the UM adjustable cable is in my future...more money on mods.

I'm not sure how other's (APR, Unitronic, Cobb, etc) tune for stage 1 vs stage 2 other than coding out the CEL for a DP. I would email APR themselves to ask about Stage 1 High Torque vs Stage 2 High Torque and see what they come back with. See if they think you are okay to run a DP with their Stage 1 HQ file.

You aren't the only one in this scenario.

I would go AWE DP in your shoes. Used they still sell for a good price and they go fast if you are factoring resale value at least.

Or just wait until you can find a used one yourself.
 
tortoise

tortoise

Ready to race!
Location
MA
OBP said:
The euro6 compliant HJC cat used in the AWE is more expensive than the GESI cat (which I believe is Euro5 compliant, but works well enough if in the stock location).

Other than sizing, there's really only one type of GESI. I think vibrant makes them and they offer different levels of cats.
Click to expand...

AWE's dp is so much more expensive than MAPerformance's version. Is it just priced for suckers, then? Or does it come down to the magic fairy dust of euro6 vs euro5?
 
MiamiBourne

MiamiBourne

Go Kart Champion
Location
South Florida
Car(s)
2016 6MT Golf R Oryx
tortoise said:
AWE's dp is so much more expensive than MAPerformance's version. Is it just priced for suckers, then? Or does it come down to the magic fairy dust of euro6 vs euro5?
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The price is in the guarantee I guess. Lol

MAP doesn't guarantee anything despite using a GESI cat. Not saying it will throw a CEL, I just don't know anyone that's proven that it doesn't...yet.

I mainly went for AWE since I have their SwitchPath exhaust.

If you have the money just get the AWE.
 
O

OBP

Go Kart Newbie
Location
ChiRaq
tortoise said:
AWE's dp is so much more expensive than MAPerformance's version. Is it just priced for suckers, then? Or does it come down to the magic fairy dust of euro6 vs euro5?
Click to expand...

AWE's dp is the only one that I can think of that uses the HJS euro cat that's widely available. I think Emmanuel might sell the BullX dp with that option.

Keep in mind the CEL free warranty is one year only, but I don't think it will be a problem

AMS uses the GESI option in their UHO size and I haven't heard of anyone mention a CEL, despite the cat's location further downstream (like APR). APR and another Canadian company's (who's name I can't seem to remember because I'm an old fart) uses the GESI HO size and both will trigger the CEL eventually.

MAP uses the HO size (you can request to change to the UHO size for $50 more) but I haven't seen any reports of CEL issues with it, probably because it sits in the stock location.

I ordered the MAP dp with GESI and resonator during the Black Friday sale, but as was noted, it's gonna take ~6 weeks to fabricate.
 
tortoise

tortoise

Ready to race!
Location
MA
MiamiBourne said:
The AWE Resonated DP used to be $1185 this time last year...they have gone up since then are now are on sale for $1423 for their one time holiday sale. I think it ends on 12/31. They went up...probably the price on the HJS cat went up. Who knows but I regret not buying last year.

I'm UM tuned w/LC & NLS for 6MT. A few people with UM also had emission concerns and in talks with UM it seems you can use their 'Like Stage 1 file' with a DP if you want the readiness set like stock. UM doesn't use stages and tunes on PSI and Octane. If you wanted a DP file to code out the CEL with them they don't charge anything like APR would.

My tune is at 28psi boost & 93oct with a stock DP since April and I just added the AWE Resonated DP this past Sunday.

No issues so far and the car pulls harder now for sure. Someone on here mentioned to watch out for overboost...I did hit 30psi in 3rd gear recently and before I was only able to hit that in 4th with more load. So maybe I'll get the boost dialed in a little lower. I guess the UM adjustable cable is in my future...more money on mods.

I'm not sure how other's (APR, Unitronic, Cobb, etc) tune for stage 1 vs stage 2 other than coding out the CEL for a DP. I would email APR themselves to ask about Stage 1 High Torque vs Stage 2 High Torque and see what they come back with. See if they think you are okay to run a DP with their Stage 1 HQ file.

You aren't the only one in this scenario.

I would go AWE DP in your shoes. Used they still sell for a good price and they go fast if you are factoring resale value at least.

Or just wait until you can find a used one yourself.
Click to expand...
Thanks. You and I appear to have the same car...Oryx 6MT with 19" Pretorias. Perhaps I'll just copy you.

What is "LC & NLS"?
 
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