Stock GTI 1'51" at Laguna, what's next?

[free_guac]

While my M3 was in the shop, I took my bone stock DD 16 GTI PP to laguna for two consecutive weekends. It was surprisingly fun and I was able to get the my laptime to 1'51".
This really surprised me since I was only able to get 1'44" with my F80 even with camber plates, track pads and 220 TW tires.

Considering Randy was only getting 1'50" with stock GTI, I am starting to consider mods to make the GTI a low-cost FWD track/street car.

I really hated the huge body roll and understeer at corner exit. Also the ESC doesn't help. Sometimes at Laguna T2 exit, it will even cut my power.
I am considering the following

1. coilover suspension, does it help with laptime at all? Does it help with getting power down at exit?
2. EP tires, likely Hanook RS-4. Are they streetable? I live in the SF Bay Area
3. camber plates. What's a good negative front camber for mostly canyon driving, street and occasional track days. I am debating if I should opt for camber plates.

My goal is the lowest cost to reduce my laptime to mid-high 40s.

Thanks folks!

 

[Will_]

I would recommend first:

1) Larger rear sway bar. Helps a ton with corner entry and mid corner rotation.
2) Any front camber helps a ton. I run EQT coilovers with their adjustable camber plates and have 2.5 degrees up front. 2.5 front and 2.0 rear seems to be, in general, a good number for a street tire on these cars.
3) Can’t speak to ties to much as I just finished off 280 TW Yokohama Advan Apex V601s (normal summer tire, one step down from A052s), but I’d say generally the consensus is 200TW tires are streetable in the Bay Area.
4) Consider disabling ESC fully through OBD11/VagCom if you find it is intervening. Did you turn it fully off (hold ESC button down for 3 seconds) before your sessions?
5) RS3 brake ducts, high temp fluid and DS2500s/equivalent pad for sustained braking performance.
5) As for coilovers...how much time they shave from the lowering and added stiffness is debatable. I enjoy the lower body roll and increased responsiveness they give, but I’m not sure in the end how much time they really save. The added camber and ability to adjust between track/daily use is the biggest benefit for me.

I ran 1:50.3 at LS earlier this year with stock power/weight and above changes. I am also shooting for 1:47/1:48 range this coming track season. I think it is very doable.

Cost wise: a larger rear sway bar, OBD11 tweaks, and 200tw tires will make a big difference. Camber plates help too but can have some added NVH (ps, I have a set for sale right now for $200 that will add 1.4 degrees).

 

[free_guac]

I would recommend first:
1) Larger rear sway bar. Helps a ton with corner entry and mid corner rotation.
2) Any front camber helps a ton. I run EQT coilovers with their adjustable camber plates and have 2.5 degrees up front.
3) Can’t speak to ties to much as I just finished off 280 TW Yokohama Advan Apex V601s (normal summer tire, one step down from A052s), but I’d say generally the consensus is 200TW tires are streetable in the Bay Area.
4) Consider disabling ESC fully through OBD11/VagCom if you find it is intervening. Did you turn it fully off (hold ESC button down for 3 seconds) before your sessions?
5) RS3 brake ducts, high temp fluid and DS2500s/equivalent pad for sustained braking performance.

I ran 1:50.3 at LS earlier this year with stock power/weight and above changes. I am also shooting for 1:47/1:48 range this coming track season. I think it is very doable.

Cost wise: a larger rear sway bar, OBD11 tweaks, and 200tw tires will make a big difference. Camber plates help too but can have some added NVH (ps, I have a set for sale right now for $200 that will add 1.4 degrees).

Thanks a lot dude! Regarding ESC, yes I put it in sports mode (hold down 3sec) but it just doesn't give me power at exit. My first goal would be to get some negative camber (to save tires) and get the rear sway bar for more mid-corner rotation.

Also, good lap times you got there. It's surprising how fast these little cars can do at a power track like LS.

 

[Will_]

Thanks a lot dude! Regarding ESC, yes I put it in sports mode (hold down 3sec) but it just doesn't give me power at exit. My first goal would be to get some negative camber (to save tires) and get the rear sway bar for more mid-corner rotation.

Also, good lap times you got there. It's surprising how fast these little cars can do at a power track like LS.

If you get an OBD11 module (like $100) you can fully disable ESC and also increase the aggressiveness of the front differential, which many people feel helps with corner exit. I have the non-performance pack open differential so for now have to live with the occasional one tire fire.

The rear sway bar makes the biggest difference on these cars. You can just flick it into corners after. Really beneficial through T3, T4, and T6 at LS where you have to lift a bit before entry.

And yes, the GTI continue to surprise me with the caliber of car they can keep up with. I can keep up with M2/M3s/981 Caymans at Thunderhill. It’s so easy to catch when you hit the limit that you can just send it through corners with full confidence.

 

[spaparizos]

Great time for a stock car!

Curious, what brake pads were you running? stock? I cooked my stock ones at laguna seca after 1 day, hence my question. I have a '17 PP GTI

I found that ESC sport is actually faster than ESC-off. But it really uses the brakes. I enjoy it more with ESC-off, switch off the vibration reduction, and hydraulic brake assist. Then use a good dogbone mount or better engine mounts to avoid wheel hop -- mostly an issue on autocross or T11 at laguna seca for me. T2 benefits a lot from increased traction setting on the LSD.

The mod that I found most rewarding was camber plates. I got the 034 fixed ones for minimal NVH. It really helps with under-steer, and so far I have no issues on the street. No tram-lining or things like that. I am at around -2.1 in the front. I think the car needs more, like -2.5 for a mixed use, -3 for a more track dedicated use.

I have ohlins instead of the regular PP suspension. I am not any faster with the ohlins, but that's probably due to my skill level, or lack thereof The ride is more comfortable on the street. The car seems more confidence inspiring over bumps. When taking a set and going, the stock suspension seemed very competent.

Tires make a big difference on these cars. So far I used stock all seasons and RE71R, A052. The 200TW transform the car. I got a couple of seconds faster going from all seasons to 200TW. In the bay area you are fine driving them around. Just when really cold outside, take it easy. Of course 200TW wears fast . I have a set of falken azenis 615+ that I plan to try out next.

I tried the stiffer rear ARB but I did not like it. I have it for sale in the classifieds now if you are looking for one. It does help with turning. But the feeling was a bit strange to me, it felt like I was reducing traction in the rear. Hence I went back to stock when I installed the ohlins.

I also have the superpro LCAs, but again I don't think they do much. The car is a bit more stable with them, and the stiffer bushings help control the car better under load, but I don't think it shaves much time. If I redid it, I would not bother until my bushings needed replacement due to wear, then do the upgrade.

Another great mod was to switch off the fake noises of the soundaktor

 

[free_guac]

Great time for a stock car!

Curious, what brake pads were you running? stock? I cooked my stock ones at laguna seca after 1 day, hence my question. I have a '17 PP GTI

I found that ESC sport is actually faster than ESC-off. But it really uses the brakes. I enjoy it more with ESC-off, switch off the vibration reduction, and hydraulic brake assist. Then use a good dogbone mount or better engine mounts to avoid wheel hop -- mostly an issue on autocross or T11 at laguna seca for me. T2 benefits a lot from increased traction setting on the LSD.

The mod that I found most rewarding was camber plates. I got the 034 fixed ones for minimal NVH. It really helps with under-steer, and so far I have no issues on the street. No tram-lining or things like that. I am at around -2.1 in the front. I think the car needs more, like -2.5 for a mixed use, -3 for a more track dedicated use.

I have ohlins instead of the regular PP suspension. I am not any faster with the ohlins, but that's probably due to my skill level, or lack thereof The ride is more comfortable on the street. The car seems more confidence inspiring over bumps. When taking a set and going, the stock suspension seemed very competent.

Tires make a big difference on these cars. So far I used stock all seasons and RE71R, A052. The 200TW transform the car. I got a couple of seconds faster going from all seasons to 200TW. In the bay area you are fine driving them around. Just when really cold outside, take it easy. Of course 200TW wears fast . I have a set of falken azenis 615+ that I plan to try out next.

I tried the stiffer rear ARB but I did not like it. I have it for sale in the classifieds now if you are looking for one. It does help with turning. But the feeling was a bit strange to me, it felt like I was reducing traction in the rear. Hence I went back to stock when I installed the ohlins.

I also have the superpro LCAs, but again I don't think they do much. The car is a bit more stable with them, and the stiffer bushings help control the car better under load, but I don't think it shaves much time. If I redid it, I would not bother until my bushings needed replacement due to wear, then do the upgrade.

Another great mod was to switch off the fake noises of the soundaktor

My OEM front pads (were out around 40K mi) were replaced with these $60 pads (Posi quiet ceramic pads) from tirerack mostly for reduced brake dust. They are more progressive than the stock pads hence not much initial bite. I normally do 2-3 hot laps before 1 cool down lap, braking was surprisingly fine. I was more worried about my tires since there was no camber and they were already pretty worn out.

So for the 034 fixed camber plates, they only give -1.4 deg, so how do you get to -2.5? I used GC camber plates on my M3 and was able to get -3.

 

[Will_]

Generally, for every inch you lower the car you gain about .7-.8 degrees static camber. The plates add another 1.4ish. So spaparizos is getting to 2.1 via that route (assuming the Ohlins lower the car a bit). That was the same as my previous setup, except I used Superpro camber plates (the Superpro and 034 plates are nearly identical).

I have 2.5 as the car is lowered about 1” (.8 degrees) and then using the camber plates built into my coilovers I can dial in up to an additional 2.5 degrees. I have it set about 2/3rds of the way, so the total is .8 + 1.7 = 2.5. To do this however, I had to expand the strut tower in order to take full advantage of the camber plates adjustability (pic below).

The other option is to replace the steering knuckles with the part from the euro Clubsport S. That will add about 1 degree of camber without any NVH increases, but is a more expensive route.

 

[spaparizos]

So for the 034 fixed camber plates, they only give -1.4 deg, so how do you get to -2.5? I used GC camber plates on my M3 and was able to get -3.

They advertise an additional 1.4 on top of whatever you have. Which is actually not true. It really depends on the ride height. They did 1 for me. I was already at 1.1 with the ohlins and LCA arms. So I am at 2.1. But it is a compromise, I still want to drive the car on the street and take my kids to school. Also my wife drives it. So I don't want tramlining on cold mornings.

I have seen clunking noises on regular camber plates, so I wanted to go with fixed ones. They have less noise (non zero) but I am fine with it. If you don't mind this, get the ground control plates for the gti. Then you can do 3 like your bmw.

 

[Will_]

So, this post got me thinking about how much times modifications really save, and while I can’t test it in real life for a few months, I do have something to approximate: Gran Turismo Sport.

I took a bone stock MK7 GTI to Laguna Seca, turned on all the most realistic settings, and got my lap time down to 1:47 flat. Most laps in the 1:47.5 range. Now I don’t think Randy’s time of 1:50.1 is the best a stock GTI could do. I think given some more time in the car he could’ve probably laid down a 1:49.5 or 1:49 flat. So let’s say for the sake of argument that, all else equal, Gran Turismo times are about 2s faster in game than in real life.

I then modified the GTI as close to what I’ve done as possible. Power from 217 -> 265hp, weight stock, suspension lowered 1”, spring rate increased 20%, damping and rebound 20% stiffer, front camber at 2.5, rear at 2.0, zero front toe, 1/2 stock rear toe. Changed tires from Sports: Hard (which I approximate to be equivalent to a 300 TW summer tire such as MPS4S) to Sports: Medium (which I think is closer to 200tw).

After a few more laps, best time then dropped to the 1:43.00 range. Adding the 2s “realism penalty” we get a real life time of 1:45.00. Do I think that’s possible in my car? Honestly, I think it is. I definitely think 1:46/1:47 is doable. I guess we’ll have to wait and see until the next time I’m out there.

For what it’s worth, although GT Sport isn’t iRacing or AssetoCorsa, the car does feel and drive remarkably similar to how it does in real life. The speeds I was hitting on straights and through corners, and how the car behaved based on my inputs, was also extremely familiar. Might have to do a side by side lap comparison next time.

 

[turbojzrr]

So, this post got me thinking about how much times modifications really save, and while I can’t test it in real life for a few months, I do have something to approximate: Gran Turismo Sport.

I took a bone stock MK7 GTI to Laguna Seca, turned on all the most realistic settings, and got my lap time down to 1:47 flat. Most laps in the 1:47.5 range. Now I don’t think Randy’s time of 1:50.1 is the best a stock GTI could do. I think given some more time in the car he could’ve probably laid down a 1:49.5 or 1:49 flat. So let’s say for the sake of argument that, all else equal, Gran Turismo times are about 2s faster in game than in real life.

I then modified the GTI as close to what I’ve done as possible. Power from 217 -> 265hp, weight stock, suspension lowered 1”, spring rate increased 20%, damping and rebound 20% stiffer, front camber at 2.5, rear at 2.0, zero front toe, 1/2 stock rear toe. Changed tires from Sports: Hard (which I approximate to be equivalent to a 300 TW summer tire such as MPS4S) to Sports: Medium (which I think is closer to 200tw).

After a few more laps, best time then dropped to the 1:43.00 range. Adding the 2s “realism penalty” we get a real life time of 1:45.00. Do I think that’s possible in my car? Honestly, I think it is. I definitely think 1:46/1:47 is doable. I guess we’ll have to wait and see until the next time I’m out there.

For what it’s worth, although GT Sport isn’t iRacing or AssetoCorsa, the car does feel and drive remarkably similar to how it does in real life. The speeds I was hitting on straights and through corners, and how the car behaved based on my inputs, was also extremely familiar. Might have to do a side by side lap comparison next time.

Will I am both impressed and also depressed that this is the case.

I'm a big time GT Sport guy and to prep for Laguna Seca, I've been spending some time on a GTI with "sports soft" tires. My lap times are in a similar range as yours but I didn't know if my driving is good or if GT Sport is accurate. I've never been to LS yet but this is going to be my main benchmark to improve on over time. Knowing that GT is that accurate, it adds a lot of confidence to my practice sessions --> this is impressive.

On the other hand, lapping the GTI after driving real sports cars like the Gr4 Cayman, I was really not impressed with the driving dynamics of the Golf in game. Driving my golf in real life in the canyons feels quite sporty and fun! I hope my golf won't be driving like the way it does on GT Sport's LS --> this is depressing lol.

 

[Will_]

Will I am both impressed and also depressed that this is the case.

I'm a big time GT Sport guy and to prep for Laguna Seca, I've been spending some time on a GTI with "sports soft" tires. My lap times are in a similar range as yours but I didn't know if my driving is good or if GT Sport is accurate. I've never been to LS yet but this is going to be my main benchmark to improve on over time. Knowing that GT is that accurate, it adds a lot of confidence to my practice sessions --> this is impressive.

On the other hand, lapping the GTI after driving real sports cars like the Gr4 Cayman, I was really not impressed with the driving dynamics of the Golf in game. Driving my golf in real life in the canyons feels quite sporty and fun! I hope my golf won't be driving like the way it does on GT Sport's LS --> this is depressing lol.

So maybe I should clarify. The car does feel depressingly slow in the game compared to real life - the sense of speed is never captured well in games. I feel like I’m hauling ass doing 1:51 around LS in real life but it feels so slow in game. What I found most accurate however was how the car reacts in game to my inputs. When I lift off mid corner the car rotates exactly how my car does. The understeer under power is the spot on. How the rear gets loose if you brake heavy into turn 10 is exactly similar. That is what I found realistic. But I agree, the stock GTI in game feels like a damn pig compared to a GR4 Cayman or other real sports cars.

 

[turbojzrr]

So maybe I should clarify. The car does feel depressingly slow in the game compared to real life - the sense of speed is never captured well in games. I feel like I’m hauling ass doing 1:51 around LS in real life but it feels so slow in game. What I found most accurate however was how the car reacts in game to my inputs. When I lift off mid corner the car rotates exactly how my car does. The understeer under power is the spot on. How the rear gets loose if you brake heavy into turn 10 is exactly similar. That is what I found realistic. But I agree, the stock GTI in game feels like a damn pig compared to a GR4 Cayman or other real sports cars.

I hear ya. Curious if you increased rear sway stiffness to be able to get that lift-off oversteer. When I run the golf on LS I get a bunch of oversteer only on the cork screw turn 7-8.

 

[turbojzrr]

Took another crack at Laguna Seca with the stock GTI. Tried a lot of laps but couldn’t get below 1:44. I’m using 227 hp which is what I heard the car is stock on sport mediums. 2.5 degree camber front and rear sway to 7 setting.

 

[Will_]

So, I was hanging out with Joe (head instructor at SpeedSF) today and we talked about LS lap times. He thinks based on the info I gave him (3100lbs, 265hp, 200tw tire, negligible aero) the car could do 1:44 or 1:45. Pretty inline with the estimates we came up with. I’m setting a personal goal of 1:47.x this year. Might need a bit more skill to see 1:45s.

 

[turbojzrr]

So, I was hanging out with Joe (head instructor at SpeedSF) today and we talked about LS lap times. He thinks based on the info I gave him (3100lbs, 265hp, 200tw tire, negligible aero) the car could do 1:44 or 1:45. Pretty inline with the estimates we came up with. I’m setting a personal goal of 1:47.x this year. Might need a bit more skill to see 1:45s.

thats cool Will. I was looking at the leader boards for the S5 class at SpeedSF and it was a 1:45.x set by an MR-S. I hope with my 200TW tires and 290 hp I could beat it in some time. After all, Motortrend did a 1:45 flat with a stock R and stock tires.

Curious about the 265 HP, is it a GTI with a stage 1 chip?