Going past APR Stage 2: What's next?

[Aussie R]

Next step is probably WMI few seem to run this on APR tunes with JB4 to control it. Would get some gains. I notice most of the fastest 1/4 mile cars have this set up.

Then it's upgrading turbo- few options APR kit I believe quite costly and large so power more at top end. Hybrid style like TTE/034/Racingline. I'd probably look at Racingline one as lots of testing in Aust and comes with Tune. Other ones will need custom tune to match.

Trouble is once your stage 3 you will no doubt want the 3+ to maximize things and then I believe pushing engine to point where rebuild will be needed sooner or later.

 

[IanCH]

I mean, the real goal in my opinion is a better power curve across the board, not necessarily huge peak gains. I havent seen the evidence against apr stage 2 to see what is providing that.

Stage 3/3+ is just straight up not an option right now unless they improve the tune.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[italynstylion]

Those who have asked what type of power band or power increase....a little more top end power would be nice. At this point, the power under the curve down low is so immense I don't feel like I need much more. A little extra top end power for highway would be nice. Not looking for a TON extra. Maybe an extra 50 or so up top over a 2000rpm range would be nice.

 

[flipflp]

Those who have asked what type of power band or power increase....a little more top end power would be nice. At this point, the power under the curve down low is so immense I don't feel like I need much more. A little extra top end power for highway would be nice. Not looking for a TON extra. Maybe an extra 50 or so up top over a 2000rpm range would be nice.

If you've got the $$$ APR stage 3 would probably serve you pretty well. Since you're already APR tuned you'd stick with a familiar company, but unfortunately you don't get a discount on Stage 3 pricing if you already have their tune. The price of the kit just includes the tune.

Otherwise you'd probably enjoy a small upgrade from a Hybrid setup like the 034 R460 Kit: https://store.034motorsport.com/r46...-s3-mkvii-volkswagen-golf-r-2-0-tfsi-mqb.html

or a TTE450, but you will need to source a new tuner for that. United Motorsports is your best bet for that.

Kits like the 034 and their software or the UM software will also increase your redline to 7200 rpm so you'll not only have more RPMs to use but you'll have power up there as well.

 

[ExcelerateRep1]

APR has program switching on older vehicles (through the turn signal stalk) and then the APR Mobile Dongle, neither are offered for Gen 3 EA888s (only supported in Bosch ECUs at this point, not Simos).

So that's not a correct statement for our cars.

It's also worth clarifying a bit that W/M at that power level is probably best used to cool the intake charge pre TB, as 93 octane or low blends of E85 pretty much max timing on most aftermarket tunes to the point of zero gains. W/M used in the throttle pipe pre-TB will keep the intake charge cool for consistency (either with a stock IC, or with an aftermarket IC and real extreme use) but the meth won't likely add much peak power unless you're using CA 91 octane or worse.

Something Gti Jake said that is worth discussing more, what's your goal? To his point, and upgraded turbo (larger) will increase lag, decrease midrange torque but move the power up to the top end. If you're highway racing, or drag racing, or track racing, this is good. If you're just looking to punch it at less than 4k RPMs and scoot around in traffic a bigger turbo probably isn't for you.

The low end and mid range torque is what is going to bend a rod, so for those looking to make their motor last, that will be a good thing. The APR stage 3+ kit spools just as fast as the is38 from the graphs we have seen and experienced first hand, so it is really going to come down to limiting the torque in the tuning... but...no fun in doing that

 

[Firstboost]

Those who have asked what type of power band or power increase....a little more top end power would be nice. At this point, the power under the curve down low is so immense I don't feel like I need much more. A little extra top end power for highway would be nice. Not looking for a TON extra. Maybe an extra 50 or so up top over a 2000rpm range would be nice.

I think you'd need a bigger turbo to extend the upper RPM powerband as I feel the IS38 is running out of breath up there with so much boost.

 

[Zacr811]

APR has program switching on older vehicles (through the turn signal stalk) and then the APR Mobile Dongle, neither are offered for Gen 3 EA888s (only supported in Bosch ECUs at this point, not Simos).

So that's not a correct statement for our cars.

It's also worth clarifying a bit that W/M at that power level is probably best used to cool the intake charge pre TB, as 93 octane or low blends of E85 pretty much max timing on most aftermarket tunes to the point of zero gains. W/M used in the throttle pipe pre-TB will keep the intake charge cool for consistency (either with a stock IC, or with an aftermarket IC and real extreme use) but the meth won't likely add much peak power unless you're using CA 91 octane or worse.

Something Gti Jake said that is worth discussing more, what's your goal? To his point, and upgraded turbo (larger) will increase lag, decrease midrange torque but move the power up to the top end. If you're highway racing, or drag racing, or track racing, this is good. If you're just looking to punch it at less than 4k RPMs and scoot around in traffic a bigger turbo probably isn't for you.

Very true about the meth. One scenario you did not mention was running meth of 93 octane to increase the octance all together. I run 93 with a 70/30 mix and can support a 100 oct race file without any timing issues at all.

 

[GTI Jake]

You mean 30/70? 30% meth 70% water I hope...

Meth isn't stable beyond 50/50

 

[flipflp]

Very true about the meth. One scenario you did not mention was running meth of 93 octane to increase the octance all together. I run 93 with a 70/30 mix and can support a 100 oct race file without any timing issues at all.

This is true, but from what I've read, and what APR specifically notes on their tunes is that MBT is possible at 93 octane alone, so "gains" with race fuel or W/M are more likely making up for heat, inconsistencies in fuel, etc.

Race Fuel Information: Higher octane fuel typically allows APR’s engineers to create more power and torque by achieving greater ignition advance. However, on this application, APR’s engineers were able to achieve MBT, or minimum spark timing for best torque, on 93 AKI fuel at Stage II power levels. MBT is essentially the point where greater ignition advance no longer results in more power and torque.

Now I also understand that APRs engineers and APR in general *might* not be as aggressive in off the shelf tunes versus someone like you stacking a JB4 to max out a tune, or someone who is custom tuned specifically for W/M, but if what they are saying is correct then peak HP is likely unchanged by W/M. To be clear I'm not saying there is no benefit, just that if you're looking to achieve a magical 400whp number on an IS38, W/M isn't a magic 20 hp on the top end.

 

[flipflp]

The low end and mid range torque is what is going to bend a rod, so for those looking to make their motor last, that will be a good thing. The APR stage 3+ kit spools just as fast as the is38 from the graphs we have seen and experienced first hand, so it is really going to come down to limiting the torque in the tuning... but...no fun in doing that

Good point, it's generally the spike or boost onset that's rough on internals. APR and other BT tuners I've seen have been easing into boost and holding to redline, versus the tuning methodology on an IS20/IS38 which is just CRANK IT ASAP. Makes for good peak numbers but especially on GTIs you're just asking for traction problems.

 

[George Smooth]

W/M will get your car faster most times. Lots of people shoot for a high dyno figure on a single run but when you running over and over on the road this figure drops by quite a bit as heat soaks in. It may not give you large gains on paper but on the road there is a big benefit.
You can also choose to stack the JB4 with some added boost and meth or E85 mix.
Next choice in my books would be the TTE470 which will give you more peak power and keep the bottom similar to what you have which works as a safe formula.
Here is a typical APR JB4 TTE470 dyno on a car with turboback and intake set for hot climate:

Here is a balls to the wall APR Stage 2 IS38 with full bolt on's and meth stacked with JB4:

Two completely different pictures one with no risk and the other with turbo close to the limit.