Didn’t realize how easily the R can lift off oversteer..

[bfury5]

Do you have a suggestion for autox and steer driving oriented alignment spec?

For a good multi-use alignment, I'd say go 0 toe all the way around. It won't have as sharp turn-in as toe out in the front and won't rotate as well as toe out in the rear, but it's a fairly good neutral place to start to let you understand how the chassis is performing.

Front camber will be limited by mods, and rear camber should be a bit less than front camber (rear gains camber under bump so you don't need a ton of static camber)

 

[Vinsanyon]

OP, what Nuespeed bars are you actually running? How anyone can provide you with advice without knowing this is questionable.

25mm FSB with 28mm RSB
25mm FSB with 27mm RSB
25mm FSB with 25mm RSB (this is my assumption based on what you're describing)

According to what I find on neuspeed website, there is only 25mm fits for golf R mk7.5

 

[launchd]

According to what I find on neuspeed website, there is only 25mm fits for golf R mk7.5

Strange... Neuspeed only makes 25mm sized bars for front and rear on the Golf R... I REALLY don't think these two bars are meant to be paired together. Neuspeed specifically states this in their product descriptions if that is the intention/recommendation and it's not stated on either of these bar's product description.

Also, all the sway bar kits (H&R, Whiteline, SuperPro, Eibach) for the Golf R (and the GTI) have either the FSB larger than the RSB (neutral setup/daily driver) or the FSB smaller than the RSB (track setup/autocross). There are literally ZERO kits on the market with both bars sitting at the same size.

 

[victorofhavoc]

Strange... Neuspeed only makes 25mm sized bars for front and rear on the Golf R... I REALLY don't think these two bars are meant to be paired together. Neuspeed specifically states this in their product descriptions if that is the intention/recommendation and it's not stated on either of these bar's product description.

Also, all the sway bar kits (H&R, Whiteline, SuperPro, Eibach) for the Golf R (and the GTI) have either the FSB larger than the RSB (neutral setup/daily driver) or the FSB smaller than the RSB (track setup/autocross). There are literally ZERO kits on the market with both bars sitting at the same size.

Bar size doesn't matter as much as stiffness. A 27mm hollow bar could be less stiff than a 22mm solid bar. Could also be stiffer. Also, Track performance really depends on so many other factors than bar for rotation. Anyone promising a certain result from specific bar combos is way off base without knowing a ton more about spring rate, ride height, aero, tire, damping, and alignment at the least.

Here's a link that explains why a massive front bar on fwd mcstrut cars is so important for adding grip and rotation. Generally a bar reduces grip across an axle, but on a mcstrut car that's not true for the front within certain limits. https://nasaspeed.news/tech/suspens...ck-performance-for-strut-suspension-cars/?amp

 

[launchd]

Bar size doesn't matter as much as stiffness. A 27mm hollow bar could be less stiff than a 22mm solid bar. Could also be stiffer. Also, Track performance really depends on so many other factors than bar for rotation. Anyone promising a certain result from specific bar combos is way off base without knowing a ton more about spring rate, ride height, aero, tire, damping, and alignment at the least.

Here's a link that explains why a massive front bar on fwd mcstrut cars is so important for adding grip and rotation. Generally a bar reduces grip across an axle, but on a mcstrut car that's not true for the front within certain limits. https://nasaspeed.news/tech/suspens...ck-performance-for-strut-suspension-cars/?amp

The two bars are the same size and thickness.

You're telling me that identical bar sizes, identical thickness, installed front and back doesn't matter? You can adjust for this with your suspension?

 

[launchd]

The two bars are the same size and thickness.

You're telling me that identical bar sizes, identical thickness, installed front and back doesn't matter? You can adjust for this with your suspension?

Also that I can replicate my NEAR neutral setup with a smaller FSB/larger RSB by adjusting my suspension setup? Camber, toe, spring rate, tire pressure, ride height...

Don't think so.

 

[launchd]

https://racer.com/2017/07/18/autocross-handling-secrets-swaybars/

Guy Ankeny is a multi-time SCCA national champion and he absolutely believes that sway bars are one of the MOST IMPORTANT things you can do to your car when it comes to autocross. You seem to understate their importance with your comment. Difference of opinions I'm sure, but I believe a national champion over a random person on a forum.

 

[victorofhavoc]

The two bars are the same size and thickness.

You're telling me that identical bar sizes, identical thickness, installed front and back doesn't matter? You can adjust for this with your suspension?

Also that I can replicate my NEAR neutral setup with a smaller FSB/larger RSB by adjusting my suspension setup? Camber, toe, spring rate, tire pressure, ride height...

Don't think so.

Yeah you can do alot of adjustment with alignment. Alignment is everything. Two bars of same size could have wall thicknesses that are different and thus have different tension/stiffness. You can also adjust endlinks with slight preload up or down and change how the car responds drastically.

You can also run no bar if you have enough spring. There are just too many factors in each setup to narrow down a simple easy answer. Rotation can also be driver preference. Randy pobst for example loves cars that understeer and he pulls faster times in them...

 

[victorofhavoc]

https://racer.com/2017/07/18/autocross-handling-secrets-swaybars/

Guy Ankeny is a multi-time SCCA national champion and he absolutely believes that sway bars are one of the MOST IMPORTANT things you can do to your car when it comes to autocross. You seem to understate their importance with your comment. Difference of opinions I'm sure, but I believe a national champion over a random person on a forum.

In the realm of autocross where your mods are limited per class, the bar is absolutely very important. I'm not understating their importance, I'm just saying there are a multitude of factors and the answer isn't always "bar size". You can't just say toss on a bigger front bar and your oversteer or understeer will go away if your front and rear toe are way out of whack.

Also, not trying to be a D-swinger as a random ahole on a forum, but while I'm random to you, I've placed first in my class and top 5 pax in a strong region with 120+ drivers. I don't autox anymore, though. Obviously it's a forum and I can say whatever and you don't have to hold my word with any credence, but that's just info for whatever it's worth to you.

 

[launchd]

In the realm of autocross where your mods are limited per class, the bar is absolutely very important. I'm not understating their importance, I'm just saying there are a multitude of factors and the answer isn't always "bar size". You can't just say toss on a bigger front bar and your oversteer or understeer will go away if your front and rear toe are way out of whack.

Suspension does little for body roll, load transfer, tire lift, inside wheel spin, transitional speed and corner acceleration vs. a sway bar... Sway bars are extremely important and you tweak your suspension around them. An identical size/thickness/type (hollow vs. solid) bar front and rear is not a setup you should ever be running. Certainly not in professional autocross where you can only replace one bar by rule and certainly not in daily driving where stability is king.

So again I'll say, I REALLY don't think he should be running identical bars front and rear.

Neuspeed doesn't recommend it and it certainly doesn't make any logical sense.

 

[victorofhavoc]

Suspension does little for body roll, load transfer, tire lift, inside wheel spin, transitional speed and corner acceleration vs. a sway bar... Sway bars are extremely important and you tweak your suspension around them. An identical size/thickness/type (hollow vs. solid) bar front and rear is not a setup you should ever be running. Certainly not in professional autocross where you can only replace one bar by rule and certainly not in daily driving where stability is king.

So again I'll say, I REALLY don't think he should be running identical bars front and rear.

Yes, but how do you know he's not running a 600lb rear spring with a 280lb front and 1/4 toe out rear? At that point it would just be a drift car even if you took off the rear bar... We just don't know the rest of his mods, alignment, damping, etc.

 

[launchd]

Yes, but how do you know he's not running a 600lb rear spring with a 280lb front and 1/4 toe out rear? At that point it would just be a drift car even if you took off the rear bar... We just don't know the rest of his mods, alignment, damping, etc.

Doesn't matter... there is never a situation where you run identical bars. If his setup benefits from this, his setup is wrong and needs to be adjusted after he fixes his bar setup. He is losing out on potential gains by running this bar setup, it is ABSOLUTELY limiting him. You should not be tweaking your suspension around this bar setup.

Perhaps you have a different opinion though and that's fine. He can do what he wants obviously.

 

[victorofhavoc]

Doesn't matter... there is never a situation where you run identical bars. If his setup benefits from this, his setup is wrong and needs to be adjusted after he fixes his bar setup. He is losing out on potential gains by running this bar setup, it is ABSOLUTELY limiting him. You should not be tweaking your suspension around this bar setup.

Perhaps you have a different opinion though and that's fine. He can do what he wants obviously.

Again, I think it depends on a variety factors. What's optimal for one person may not be for another. Some people don't trail brake or left foot brake well, or at all, and they're missing out on tremendous amounts of time on course. Those same people will run crazy amounts of bar in the rear with soft fronts and still complain about understeer. If you're not shifting your weight into your turning wheels, you'll always have understeer.

Rear bar also won't solve throttle on pitch where your front loses traction. Take your damping up to max and you won't squat so you'll be faster on corner out. That damping also helps reduce rear grip. If you have powerful enough dampers, like a decent set of motons, you can run less bar to achieve the same roll stiffness and ALSO have less squat and dive while accelerating and braking. Course, tire, driver, and car setup have to be in sync for best results, and that's often a challenge when you only have 4 minutes per weekend to figure out. The best drivers can eyeball a best setup and then tweak damping, tire pressure, bar, and toe to get the exact handling they want. More experience messing with the settings and knowing how the car responds leads them to a best setup within one or two sessions usually.

 

[launchd]

Again, I think it depends on a variety factors. What's optimal for one person may not be for another. Some people don't trail brake or left foot brake well, or at all, and they're missing out on tremendous amounts of time on course. Those same people will run crazy amounts of bar in the rear with soft fronts and still complain about understeer. If you're not shifting your weight into your turning wheels, you'll always have understeer.

Rear bar also won't solve throttle on pitch where your front loses traction. Take your damping up to max and you won't squat so you'll be faster on corner out. That damping also helps reduce rear grip. If you have powerful enough dampers, like a decent set of motons, you can run less bar to achieve the same roll stiffness and ALSO have less squat and dive while accelerating and braking. Course, tire, driver, and car setup have to be in sync for best results, and that's often a challenge when you only have 4 minutes per weekend to figure out. The best drivers can eyeball a best setup and then tweak damping, tire pressure, bar, and toe to get the exact handling they want. More experience messing with the settings and knowing how the car responds leads them to a best setup within one or two sessions usually.

I get what you're saying, you seem extremely knowledgeable and I don't want to knock what you're saying... I'm sure it's all accurate.

All I'm saying is, you should NEVER install identical sway bars front and back. I've literally NEVER heard of ANYONE doing this on ANY car (FWD/AWD and certainly not RWD) and I've been modding cars for 20 years (nine different cars). So this person has a setup that is not considered ideal or normal by any means, that is the first thing that should be addressed...

 

[victorofhavoc]

I get what you're saying, you seem extremely knowledgeable and I don't want to knock what you're saying... I'm sure it's all accurate.

All I'm saying is, you should NEVER install identical sway bars front and back. I've literally NEVER heard of ANYONE doing this on ANY car (FWD/AWD and certainly not RWD) and I've been modding cars for 20 years (nine different cars). So this person has a setup that is not considered ideal or normal by any means, that is the first thing that should be addressed...

It was a common practice in competition wrx and sti cars, and I've seen even bar sizing in a few other setups that are race proven.

I hesitate to ever use terms like "never" because you just can't predict every variance. 40 years ago everyone said you don't ever use turbos in cars because turbos are for semi trucks and superchargers are for cars... You really can't generalize when it comes to cars that have varying types of suspension geometry. My front and rear bars on the racecar are even and I'll likely stiffen the rear and remove that bar entirely.

I don't disagree with your assessment in this case, but if op actually wants to reduce the oversteer I'd play with toe and tire pressure first. That's free and easy. If he has to go to crazy toe in, crazy low pressure, crazy soft/underdamped rear, or has too much oversteer when braking, then it's time to mess with bar size. Also, if he has bar adjustments front and rear the soft setting on rear may be sifter or same as stock while front could be stiffer or softer. Most stabilizer bar manufacturers for this platform give ZERO indication if their bars are stiffer or softer and by how much. Again, thickness makes no distinction for stiffness, so you're really shooting in the dark and estimating.