Carbotech XP10 fitment issues - 2019 MK7.5 Golf R

[donefor]

Had the same issue with Hawk DTC-60 that came without clips, had to retrofit some from an old set. Complete PIA

 

[M3bs1]

I ran the XP12 CT front pads on my R with stock rotors for one weekend. They rattled like hell, but worked fine.

 

[Autobahn]

I had the same experience with Carbotech pads and Girodisc rotors. I bought street and race pads for the front and race pads for the rear.

The pads were oversized which would work fine on stock rotors but would rub the Girodisc top hats. The tabs on the front pads were too large too. I sent them back so they could resize them. I ended up throwing the fronts in the trash but am still using the rear XP10’s without issue.

I use to really like their XP20 enduro pad, lots torque with very low wear.

I had good luck with Porterfield pads on the stock brakes and am now using Ferodo with my Brembo kit which I really like.

The thing about using clips on race pads is that the clips end up loosening up and make a clicking sound when coming on throttle over time. I thought something was loose when that first happened, not a big deal but something to be aware of.

 

[victorofhavoc]

For reference, I used the gloc R10, r12, and R16 and they all required grinding down the tab with a dremel to make them fit into the tab slot on the caliper carrier. Doesn't hurt anything and helps give a snug fit, but it's certainly annoying to do. Clips on the rear r8 pads for me got too weak after a few weekends and ended up making a loud metal snap/pop noise whenever changing direction (forward/reverse) in the car. Against, doesn't hurt anything, but would scare the daylights out of pedestrians around to witness it.

I use carbotech pads on my racecar and they're a good pad, but cheap just like gloc. Ferodo is a better pad over the life span of the pad itself with less wear on the rotor.

Hope it's working out for you! Have fun out there!

 

[ironicbadger]

For reference, I used the gloc R10, r12, and R16 and they all required grinding down the tab with a dremel to make them fit into the tab slot on the caliper carrier. Doesn't hurt anything and helps give a snug fit, but it's certainly annoying to do. Clips on the rear r8 pads for me got too weak after a few weekends and ended up making a loud metal snap/pop noise whenever changing direction (forward/reverse) in the car. Against, doesn't hurt anything, but would scare the daylights out of pedestrians around to witness it.

I use carbotech pads on my racecar and they're a good pad, but cheap just like gloc. Ferodo is a better pad over the life span of the pad itself with less wear on the rotor.

Hope it's working out for you! Have fun out there!

I've been quite happy with the performance of the Ferodo pads (they're all I know so perhaps stockholm syndrome?). I was up at VIR with Chin 3 weeks ago and ran an almost uninterrupted 75 min session. After 30 mins or so I could really begin to the limits of the stock brake setup even with these pads. It wasn't fade so much as it was just a lack of absolute stopping power. It never felt unsafe, but things were definitely quite hot and approaching spongy territory.

Folks say the Ferodo pads are a bit binary / grabby. I'd have to agree with that, especially coming into a turn like Oak Tree where its all about modulation and not threshold. Hard to judge but you do get used to it.

I've got 7 days on track in these pads and reckon as I am getting faster I've got probably another 5 or so in them up front. The rotors though, they're showing significant signs of pre-crack heat stress. All fun and games!

 

[victorofhavoc]

I've been quite happy with the performance of the Ferodo pads (they're all I know so perhaps stockholm syndrome?). I was up at VIR with Chin 3 weeks ago and ran an almost uninterrupted 75 min session. After 30 mins or so I could really begin to the limits of the stock brake setup even with these pads. It wasn't fade so much as it was just a lack of absolute stopping power. It never felt unsafe, but things were definitely quite hot and approaching spongy territory.

Folks say the Ferodo pads are a bit binary / grabby. I'd have to agree with that, especially coming into a turn like Oak Tree where its all about modulation and not threshold. Hard to judge but you do get used to it.

I've got 7 days on track in these pads and reckon as I am getting faster I've got probably another 5 or so in them up front. The rotors though, they're showing significant signs of pre-crack heat stress. All fun and games!

It's all about heat evac. The front end on these cars builds tremendous heat in the tire and brakes and there's nothing factory to help get the heat out. You can add the little deflectors or get proper ducting getting air in from the front air dam to the back of the rotor, but that's only going to delay the problem. Proper venting on the fender is the "correct" solution to getting more life and stopping out of the factory brakes. The factory pp pads are actually very large and the rotor is no slouch either.

I don't know your experience level, but my experience instructing drivers is typically "beginners on the brake too much", "intermediate on the brakes too little", and "advanced folks spending 95% of their time working on brake release techniques". A lot of the people who get stuck feeling their brakes are "grabby" or overheating try to solve it with a new pad or brake, but most typically the issue is solved by backing up the brake zone and using a slower brake release coming into the apex. This usually keeps the brakes from overheating because the tire is staying 30-40 degrees cooler and the pad isn't suddenly pulling away while it's sticky from heat (and not leaving behind bonding material on the rotor). This was a tough and humbling lesson I had to learn going back and forth between 5-6 different pads while looking for "more". Endurance pads will make the issue significantly worse because they're designed to be gradually brought and maintained at a particular temp. Shorter sessions they'll usually feel weak until they get to temp and then cause lock-up on anything less than a 60tw tire. Lockup leads to more heat, and then suddenly smoke and problems.

If you have data from on track, look at your speed graph, and for each corner make sure the tip of the peak is a smooth curved line that looks like a shark fin. If not, work on smoothing that out with slower and smoother brake release while trail braking. It will help a ton with brake maintenance, life, and fall off. Just my 0.02c

 

[DerHase]

I've been quite happy with the performance of the Ferodo pads (they're all I know so perhaps stockholm syndrome?). I was up at VIR with Chin 3 weeks ago and ran an almost uninterrupted 75 min session. After 30 mins or so I could really begin to the limits of the stock brake setup even with these pads. It wasn't fade so much as it was just a lack of absolute stopping power. It never felt unsafe, but things were definitely quite hot and approaching spongy territory.

Folks say the Ferodo pads are a bit binary / grabby. I'd have to agree with that, especially coming into a turn like Oak Tree where its all about modulation and not threshold. Hard to judge but you do get used to it.

I've got 7 days on track in these pads and reckon as I am getting faster I've got probably another 5 or so in them up front. The rotors though, they're showing significant signs of pre-crack heat stress. All fun and games!

You're definitely over-braking (way too early and softly) which builds considerably more heat (especially with a high-mu compound).

That said, your car should be making more power, and it's a tad heavier than mine.

It's all about heat evac. The front end on these cars builds tremendous heat in the tire and brakes and there's nothing factory to help get the heat out. You can add the little deflectors or get proper ducting getting air in from the front air dam to the back of the rotor, but that's only going to delay the problem. Proper venting on the fender is the "correct" solution to getting more life and stopping out of the factory brakes. The factory pp pads are actually very large and the rotor is no slouch either.

I don't know your experience level, but my experience instructing drivers is typically "beginners on the brake too much", "intermediate on the brakes too little", and "advanced folks spending 95% of their time working on brake release techniques". A lot of the people who get stuck feeling their brakes are "grabby" or overheating try to solve it with a new pad or brake, but most typically the issue is solved by backing up the brake zone and using a slower brake release coming into the apex. This usually keeps the brakes from overheating because the tire is staying 30-40 degrees cooler and the pad isn't suddenly pulling away while it's sticky from heat (and not leaving behind bonding material on the rotor). This was a tough and humbling lesson I had to learn going back and forth between 5-6 different pads while looking for "more". Endurance pads will make the issue significantly worse because they're designed to be gradually brought and maintained at a particular temp. Shorter sessions they'll usually feel weak until they get to temp and then cause lock-up on anything less than a 60tw tire. Lockup leads to more heat, and then suddenly smoke and problems.

If you have data from on track, look at your speed graph, and for each corner make sure the tip of the peak is a smooth curved line that looks like a shark fin. If not, work on smoothing that out with slower and smoother brake release while trail braking. It will help a ton with brake maintenance, life, and fall off. Just my 0.02c

Fantastic post.

I know @ironicbadger doesn't have data, but here's an example... this is going into T1:

The last little wiggle in brake trace is just a few small 300psi blips in an attempt to figure out if the front end will turn in harder (it will not, tires are hot and greasy at this point), and slowly feeding in steering while getting off the brake pedal down to apex(ish).. looks like there was a 0.5 sec delay from off-brakes to on-throttle so there was potential to carry a tad more speed (or more likely I was probably pushing off-line and just trying to get back where I needed to be). This was 6 min into a 90+ ambient day.

The 3.12 pads are indeed on the grabby side - and I suspect most 200TW tires will "fall off" once the pads are fully up to temp which does make them harder to modulate later in a session, especially on a hot day. I need to bug Ferodo/Essex to make 1.11s available for the front of our PP equipped cars. I really think that will be the answer.

 

[victorofhavoc]

You're definitely over-braking (way too early and softly) which builds considerably more heat (especially with a high-mu compound).

That said, your car should be making more power, and it's a tad heavier than mine.



Fantastic post.

I know @ironicbadger doesn't have data, but here's an example... this is going into T1:

View attachment 286968

The last little wiggle in brake trace is just a few small 300psi blips in an attempt to figure out if the front end will turn in harder (it will not, tires are hot and greasy at this point), and slowly feeding in steering while getting off the brake pedal down to apex(ish).. looks like there was a 0.5 sec delay from off-brakes to on-throttle so there was potential to carry a tad more speed (or more likely I was probably pushing off-line and just trying to get back where I needed to be). This was 6 min into a 90+ ambient day.

The 3.12 pads are indeed on the grabby side - and I suspect most 200TW tires will "fall off" once the pads are fully up to temp which does make them harder to modulate later in a session, especially on a hot day. I need to bug Ferodo/Essex to make 1.11s available for the front of our PP equipped cars. I really think that will be the answer.

For anyone else that may not know how to read this type of data, the second graph there is speed over time, and that's a really good place to start to identify your "smoothness" with a metric. That one is a good example of a rolling and smooth in the valley and second peak. The first peak could have been a tiny bit smoother, but if that was coming down from a big straight it's probably fine! High speed braking peaks just look more aggressive than they actually are due to drag giving additional braking power.

Are you left foot braking and rolling into the throttle in the "dead zone" before the apex to build boost?

 

[DerHase]

For anyone else that may not know how to read this type of data, the second graph there is speed over time, and that's a really good place to start to identify your "smoothness" with a metric. That one is a good example of a rolling and smooth in the valley and second peak. The first peak could have been a tiny bit smoother, but if that was coming down from a big straight it's probably fine! High speed braking peaks just look more aggressive than they actually are due to drag giving additional braking power.

Are you left foot braking and rolling into the throttle in the "dead zone" before the apex to build boost?

T1 at VIR starts out downhill, then moves slightly uphill which is part of the reason for the initial "low" longitudal Gs (red trace in bottom). White trace is brake pedal. I have the longitudal Gs flipped (and all the positive accel out of range) when trying to identify brake pressure vs G force. I've seen been able to add a PID for flagging when ABS intervention occurs which is helpful.

I'm not left foot braking - these cars will kill power if you don't let off the throttle fully, get on the brakes, then reapply throttle.

I do believe it's something that might be able to be modified in the tune, but my left foot braking is really awkward - primarily in a car that doesn't have a containment seat/5-6pt harnesses.

These 3.12s IMO are better than most of the other options available for these cars for the PP shape, but they are definitely touchy and IMO overly so. The 1.11s are really needed I think. Or even the DS UNO compound. And of course even more brake cooling.

 

[victorofhavoc]

T1 at VIR starts out downhill, then moves slightly uphill which is part of the reason for the initial "low" longitudal Gs (red trace in bottom). White trace is brake pedal. I have the longitudal Gs flipped (and all the positive accel out of range) when trying to identify brake pressure vs G force. I've seen been able to add a PID for flagging when ABS intervention occurs which is helpful.

I'm not left foot braking - these cars will kill power if you don't let off the throttle fully, get on the brakes, then reapply throttle.

I do believe it's something that might be able to be modified in the tune, but my left foot braking is really awkward - primarily in a car that doesn't have a containment seat/5-6pt harnesses.

These 3.12s IMO are better than most of the other options available for these cars for the PP shape, but they are definitely touchy and IMO overly so. The 1.11s are really needed I think. Or even the DS UNO compound. And of course even more brake cooling.

Yeah LFB is the reason I tuned the car in the first place. Turbo cars lose so much time mid corner without LFB. NA it doesn't matter much because you usually have a few feet of no input before the apex, but in that time in the gti I'm feathering the throttle to start building boost and there's a huge difference on corner exit.

All the ferodo pads are generally good. I've been using the ds2500 for street and occasional track use and they work fine matched with a 200tw-300tw. Any more tire and they wouldn't really do.

Ive found the abs to be lacking a lot in these cars and it seems to really favor the driver side when intervening. Ime, if abs is getting involved there's a good chance fluid will cook soon behind it, regardless of fluid type. I've tried all the super temp fluids, but good ol rbf600 seems to need the least bleeding after sessions. Same seems to be true in my dedicated car, but abs in that car was horrendous so I disabled it entirely.

 

[orxyglfr]

Found this thread after running into the same issue with a set of Carbotech XP10s. I wish I would have noticed before taking it on a quick test drive, but the car sounds like the control arms are falling off when I go over even small bumps.

Called CT and talked to "Mike Jr." who gave me the same nonsense about how this is how they have to be (despite most other track pad manufacturers having figured out how to include springs, and also—why not just scale-up the tabs on the plate up a bit so they're not moving around 3-4mm up/down and side to side?).

Now they're not letting me return them because I drove on them for a couple miles before turning around to go home, so I'm left dealing with the car sounding like a POS for the hours long drives to and from track events. I've been buying pads from CT for years and have sent them a ton of referrals, but Mike Jr. was all-too-OK with losing a customer when I talked to him about the issue. So I guess that's that... Buyer's beware. Their compounds are good but if this is the way it is now, Ferodo will get my money moving forward.

 

[victorofhavoc]

Founds this thread after running into the same issue with a set of Carbotech XP10s. I wish I would have noticed before taking it on a quick test drive, but the car sounds like the control arms are falling off when I go over even small bumps.

Called CT and talked to "Mike Jr." who gave me the same nonsense about how this is how they have to be (despite most other track pad manufacturers having figured out how to include springs, and also—why not just scale-up the tabs on the plate up a bit so they're not moving around 3-4mm up/down and side to side?).

Now they're not letting me return them because I drove on them for a couple miles before turning around to go home, so I'm left dealing with the car sounding like a POS for the hours long drives to and from track events. I've been buying pads from CT for years and have sent them a ton of referrals, but Mike Jr. was all-too-OK with losing a customer when I talked to him about the issue. So I guess that's that... Buyer's beware. Their compounds are good but if this is the way it is now, Ferodo will get my money moving forward.

My understanding is that some people from carbotech got upset at how the company was going so they formed gloc. Theyre the same compounds, but possibly different bonding agents...? Either way, the gloc are a good quality track and race pad that in the pp sizing comes with a larger pad surface and thickness than most 6pot designs, so there's lots of pad heat capacity. They also have oversized tabs that I've had to use a dremel stone wheel to grind down for a snug fit into the carrier.

 

[orxyglfr]

Yeah that’s what I’ve heard as well. Honestly, I’ve had nothing but good experiences in the past with Carbotech so I just ordered the pads for my MK7 out of habit without doing any new research. I now wish I had poked around a bit more first.

Given that I’ll be out the ~$300 if I just scrap them, assuming they’re at least safe), I’m debating putting some brake quiet on the plates in an attempt to make it tolerable to make the drive to Mid-Ohio and just plan to take the pads off the minute I get home.

My understanding is that some people from carbotech got upset at how the company was going so they formed gloc. Theyre the same compounds, but possibly different bonding agents...? Either way, the gloc are a good quality track and race pad that in the pp sizing comes with a larger pad surface and thickness than most 6pot designs, so there's lots of pad heat capacity. They also have oversized tabs that I've had to use a dremel stone wheel to grind down for a snug fit into the carrier.

 

[DerHase]

Yeah that’s what I’ve heard as well. Honestly, I’ve had nothing but good experiences in the past with Carbotech so I just ordered the pads for my MK7 out of habit without doing any new research. I now wish I had poked around a bit more first.

Given that I’ll be out the ~$300 if I just scrap them, assuming they’re at least safe), I’m debating putting some brake quiet on the plates in an attempt to make it tolerable to make the drive to Mid-Ohio and just plan to take the pads off the minute I get home.

Try fitting the pad backing "shims" from OE or cheap parts store pads to the CT pads. It won't take up the up-down slack, but it'll take some play out of it radially since those shims wrap around the "ears” of the pad.