7
034 RS3 specific springs are the BEST lowering spring for AWD MK7
- Thread starter Spade
- Start date
Im also curious to know how the b8 are holding up to those spring rates, I know they work with lowering springs but what rates can they cope with without deteriorating or failing. I dont know if b4 oe springs for the s3 would be better considering the s3 oem spring rates are 320,400 front and rear and b4 oe are oem replacement for those.
GoatAutomotive
Autocross Champion
- Location
- Georgetown, TX
- Car(s)
- 2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
Some folks are drastically overthinking this... 
The B8s are a bad @$$, highly versatile monotube damper.
To emphasize this point, compressing the piston rod on these new (front) struts took most of my strength and a lot of my bodyweight.
(speaking as a 225lb, career auto worker with arms like the rotating assembly in a diesel engine, and the dad-belly of a young Buddha who discovered beer).
1) These dampers are robust and will do extremely WELL if you put a GOOD quality spring on them.
2) They're an inch shorter than the stock struts, and the corresponding B6 strut offerings; both of which are for use with stock springs.
This makes the B8s compatible with MOST springs that are shorter than stock.
3) Having ENOUGH spring rate and static ride height to keep the B8s OFF of their internal bumpstops is most important.
Ask me how I know...
-H&R OE Sports didn't have enough rate, but come very close on the ride height. H&R Sports drop the car further and will ride like a skateboard because of it.
-APR Roll Control and EMD springs have produced terrible results for people over and over from insufficient rate + too much drop (not enough static ride height and usable stroke).
-VWR are a total tossup. Most VWR owners only street drive their cars or do to C&C parking lot meets. Let's be real.
So they may not be as sensitive/concerned about hitting bumpstops on bad roads, lack of corner control in fast sections of a road course or canyon road, etc.
4) The Neuspeed Sport springs for the GTI/R, and aftermarket S3/RS3 springs offered by Neuspeed and 034, are the ONLY MQB-compatible offerings I have found available (without moving to a dedicated coilover), that provide the higher spring rates necessary to keep the B8s off their internal bumpstops, under hard compression and surface changes.
@tigeo found a bandaid method (no disrespect) that involves spring travel limiters on the H&Rs to keep the coils from compressing excessively on hard drips and bumps, to preserve the bump-travel of the B8s.
I am about to try the same, since it's a $15 experiment with parts/return warranty if the rubber isolators fail.
All that said, people need to quit asking "will this work with B8s?" and START asking:
"Where is the final static ride height with these HD springs on my much lighter 3100lb GTI (or 3300lb Golf R)?"
This is because the S3 spring options are for a 3460lb S3, and the RS3s are for a... (you guessed it) ~3600lb RS3.
Hope this helps some folks out who don't fully grasp suspension and chassis dynamics (which happens to be one of my 10 favorite subjects).
Let me know if I've failed to address anything else on the subject.
-The Feisty Goat
The B8s are a bad @$$, highly versatile monotube damper.
To emphasize this point, compressing the piston rod on these new (front) struts took most of my strength and a lot of my bodyweight.
(speaking as a 225lb, career auto worker with arms like the rotating assembly in a diesel engine, and the dad-belly of a young Buddha who discovered beer).
1) These dampers are robust and will do extremely WELL if you put a GOOD quality spring on them.
2) They're an inch shorter than the stock struts, and the corresponding B6 strut offerings; both of which are for use with stock springs.
This makes the B8s compatible with MOST springs that are shorter than stock.
3) Having ENOUGH spring rate and static ride height to keep the B8s OFF of their internal bumpstops is most important.
Ask me how I know...
-H&R OE Sports didn't have enough rate, but come very close on the ride height. H&R Sports drop the car further and will ride like a skateboard because of it.
-APR Roll Control and EMD springs have produced terrible results for people over and over from insufficient rate + too much drop (not enough static ride height and usable stroke).
-VWR are a total tossup. Most VWR owners only street drive their cars or do to C&C parking lot meets. Let's be real.
So they may not be as sensitive/concerned about hitting bumpstops on bad roads, lack of corner control in fast sections of a road course or canyon road, etc.
4) The Neuspeed Sport springs for the GTI/R, and aftermarket S3/RS3 springs offered by Neuspeed and 034, are the ONLY MQB-compatible offerings I have found available (without moving to a dedicated coilover), that provide the higher spring rates necessary to keep the B8s off their internal bumpstops, under hard compression and surface changes.
@tigeo found a bandaid method (no disrespect) that involves spring travel limiters on the H&Rs to keep the coils from compressing excessively on hard drips and bumps, to preserve the bump-travel of the B8s.
I am about to try the same, since it's a $15 experiment with parts/return warranty if the rubber isolators fail.
All that said, people need to quit asking "will this work with B8s?" and START asking:
"Where is the final static ride height with these HD springs on my much lighter 3100lb GTI (or 3300lb Golf R)?"
This is because the S3 spring options are for a 3460lb S3, and the RS3s are for a... (you guessed it) ~3600lb RS3.
Hope this helps some folks out who don't fully grasp suspension and chassis dynamics (which happens to be one of my 10 favorite subjects).
Let me know if I've failed to address anything else on the subject.
-The Feisty Goat
Nic
Some folks are drastically overthinking this...
The B8s are a bad @$$, highly versatile monotube damper.
To emphasize this point, compressing the piston rod on these new (front) struts took most of my strength and a lot of my bodyweight.
(speaking as a 225lb, career auto worker with arms like the rotating assembly in a diesel engine, and the dad-belly of a young Buddha who discovered beer).
1) These dampers are robust and will do extremely WELL if you put a GOOD quality spring on them.
2) They're an inch shorter than the stock struts, and the corresponding B6 strut offerings; both of which are for use with stock springs.
This makes the B8s compatible with MOST springs that are shorter than stock.
3) Having ENOUGH spring rate and static ride height to keep the B8s OFF of their internal bumpstops is most important.
Ask me how I know...
-H&R OE Sports didn't have enough rate, but come very close on the ride height. H&R Sports drop the car further and will ride like a skateboard because of it.
-APR Roll Control and EMD springs have produced terrible results for people over and over from insufficient rate + too much drop (not enough static ride height and usable stroke).
-VWR are a total tossup. Most VWR owners only street drive their cars or do to C&C parking lot meets. Let's be real.
So they may not be as sensitive/concerned about hitting bumpstops on bad roads, lack of corner control in fast sections of a road course or canyon road, etc.
4) The Neuspeed Sport springs for the GTI/R, and aftermarket S3/RS3 springs offered by Neuspeed and 034, are the ONLY MQB-compatible offerings I have found available (without moving to a dedicated coilover), that provide the higher spring rates necessary to keep the B8s off their internal bumpstops, under hard compression and surface changes.
@tigeo found a bandaid method (no disrespect) that involves spring travel limiters on the H&Rs to keep the coils from compressing excessively on hard drips and bumps, to preserve the bump-travel of the B8s.
I am about to try the same, since it's a $15 experiment with parts/return warranty if the rubber isolators fail.
All that said, people need to quit asking "will this work with B8s?" and START asking:
"Where is the final static ride height with these HD springs on my much lighter 3100lb GTI (or 3300lb Golf R)?"
This is because the S3 spring options are for a 3460lb S3, and the RS3s are for a... (you guessed it) ~3600lb RS3.
Hope this helps some folks out who don't fully grasp suspension and chassis dynamics (which happens to be one of my 10 favorite subjects).
Let me know if I've failed to address anything else on the subject.
-The Feisty Goa
Thanks for the feedback, im going to go with s3 springs and bilstein b4 oe s3 struts just to play it safe. The struts are relatively inexpensive. I dont want anything too harsh as I dont track my car.
I just got an answer from bilstein about the rates that the b6 and b8 struts can take. They said they aim for 15-20% more or 15-20% less than what the oem springs are rated for without having to revalve the struts and have any issues. I basically emailed every department in bilstein because the reps you speak to on the phone know absolutely no specifics about their own products. Also in terms of the ride height and s3/rs3 being heavier, I dont think this will have that big of an effect. In europe the s3 sportback is actually lighter than the R and the same springs are used on the sportback s3 as the sedan s3 in north america. Not to mention the s3 sits a bit lower than the R anyway, ive had the 2 cars side by side.
I just got an answer from bilstein about the rates that the b6 and b8 struts can take. They said they aim for 15-20% more or 15-20% less than what the oem springs are rated for without having to revalve the struts and have any issues. I basically emailed every department in bilstein because the reps you speak to on the phone know absolutely no specifics about their own products. Also in terms of the ride height and s3/rs3 being heavier, I dont think this will have that big of an effect. In europe the s3 sportback is actually lighter than the R and the same springs are used on the sportback s3 as the sedan s3 in north america. Not to mention the s3 sits a bit lower than the R anyway, ive had the 2 cars side by side.
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The current lowering spring from APR (SUS00014) is not the same as the older version that you are likely referring to (SUS00003). The current APR springs have a rates of 320/360 ft/in, which is the stiffest spring currently available specifically for GTI/R.
GoatAutomotive
Autocross Champion
- Location
- Georgetown, TX
- Car(s)
- 2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
@Greg_mk7 - it’s unfortunate you’re not the first person I’ve heard on here say that the sales reps know nothing about their products, especially with Bill Stein. That’s very disappointing to hear. I think you made a good call.
My B8s are amazing on the track and on curvy roads, but when the road surface gets rough you definitely feel it! I’m getting old, I really need some adjustable dampers on here so I can soften things up. You DCC boys are very lucky!
The B4 is a very comfortable street damper. If you’re looking for a quality, I don’t think you’ll be disappointed at all.
I installed a set for a customer last month with stock Springs and they felt wonderful.
My B8s are amazing on the track and on curvy roads, but when the road surface gets rough you definitely feel it! I’m getting old, I really need some adjustable dampers on here so I can soften things up. You DCC boys are very lucky!
The B4 is a very comfortable street damper. If you’re looking for a quality, I don’t think you’ll be disappointed at all.
I installed a set for a customer last month with stock Springs and they felt wonderful.
GoatAutomotive
Autocross Champion
- Location
- Georgetown, TX
- Car(s)
- 2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
Thank you for pointing this out. I wasn't aware they'd gone back and introduced a revision.
New spring rates look excellent if they're being honest.
What's weird is they proudly advertise a mild 18mm front drop (15-20mm is great!)...but a 35mm rear drop.
So we're back to dealing with unwanted reverse rake, even with the use of a 7-8mm spring spacer like the Audi TT rear isolator.
Pics and data confirming this can be found here: https://www.goapr.com/products/suspension/spring/parts/SUS00014
Why must it be so difficult to get good springs on these cars?!
Luckily for you, I've taken the liberty of guinea pig testing the APR springs, and they are installed on my R now. I haven't driven that car for a few weeks, but here are my limited impressions from street driving.
- Considerably stiffer than stock, but plenty comfortable. Feels less SUV and more sporty.
- Yes there is a reverse rake on my R, not sure if that would be present on the GTI. However my current solution is a pair of cheap rubber sleeve spring isolators around the rear dead coils. Can be installed/removed in about 1 minute which is useful for rule compliance with certain time trail or autocross classes. I suspect that TT rear spring isolators would be plenty to remove the reverse rake, since rear does not have a motion ratio of 1.
- I haven't done any autocross or track on them yet, so no comment there.
On its face this explanation makes sense, except that the B12 kit comes with B8s with eibach pro-kit springs which are nowhere near the rate of these other springs. If you have taller springs, you can get away with less rate. It's pound per inch after all. That's a key metric that almost none of these companies provide, just lowering on the intended chassis (which is often wrong anyway).
Typically you can use B8s or B6s on springs designed for stock dampers, but if you have short, hopefully stiffer springs designed for shortened aftermarket struts, you'll have to use B8s. A spring that's designed (not just sold as) for the stock damper can be used on either. If it can keep the car off the bump stops on B6s, it can definitely do so on B8s.
Keep in mind that B8s are shortened on the shaft, not the strut body. You just need more spring to keep them from bottoming out, which can be either height or rate. Since people are generally running them with stupid low springs, you do need the relatively high rates from Neuspeed or APR, but I suspect that 034's GTI/R springs are adequate insofar as their sales material can be trusted.