XDS, VAQ and a bit of ESP

So, I've had VAG cars with the XDS system before (which I turned down to minimum for the track) but this is my first car with the VAQ e-lsd so the question that comes to mind is:

Why would you want the XDS set to anything other than OFF when you have an e-lsd like the VAQ? XDS will only slow you down by braking the inside front wheel (in that sense it's closer to ESP just acting under different conditions), before the VAQ gets the chance to work its magic and actually provide increased grip and higher cornering speeds. (which it has already done in a spectacular fashion)

The way I understand it, for track/fast road use the setting should be:

ESP OFF or Sport and XDS definitely OFF. VAQ will take care of the cornering, much better than any XDS system could (in terms of performance).


On that note, it is worth mentioning that on my MY2017 Clubsport, pressing the ESP button once switches to ESC Sport (no ASR/TCS off message) and if I long-press it, ESP comes back on.

BUT, in the car's soft menu, there is a dedicated ESP selection that has two options: ESP SPORT / ESP OFF. If I manually pick "ESP OFF" then apart from the yellow triangle, a different light lights up on the dash showing ESP OFF permanently. No coding has been done to the car regarding the ESP options. Is it really possible that the ESP can be fully turned off from the car's menu (in 100% stock setup) as that options suggests? Is it the same on standard GTI's? Sounds too good to be true...

I mean I don't see why not. The functionality is there anyway in VCDS to switch ESC off, and it does switch it mostly off. Being a Clubsport I don't see why they won't let you switch it off vs normal GTIs.

I don't know how much XDS is doing anything on cars with VAQ. VAQ is pretty damn effective without messing with any VCDS setting for XDS so far for me.

RacingManiac said:

I mean I don't see why not. The functionality is there anyway in VCDS to switch ESC off, and it does switch it mostly off. Being a Clubsport I don't see why they won't let you switch it off vs normal GTIs.

I don't know how much XDS is doing anything on cars with VAQ. VAQ is pretty damn effective without messing with any VCDS setting for XDS so far for me.

Click to expand...

Re the ESP, I know it can be done via VCDS, but it's not set up from factory to be able to be switched off no? It was actually on my to-do tweaks list so it came as a surprise really to discover that it was an option in the car's menus. Hence the question: does it really do what it says on the box or I should still proceed with coding it out? Do you get the ESP OFF button permanently illuminating when it's turned off via VCDS? must be a bit annoying driving with all those warnings on all the time.



Re XDS, I don't know how much it's doing either as I've definitely felt the car pulling towards the apex like no other before and that should be down to the VAQ for the biggest part. But the XDS is there, and it is also a customizable option on the individual profile with Normal / Sport options, which I guess means how much intervention is allowed. The question is does it intervene before or after the lsd? Maybe if the speed is so high that even the VAQ cannot correct the car's track XDS comes on and applies brakes?? This is just speculation obviously...

The ESP Off coding just changes the button behavior here from Normal->ASR Off ->ESP Sport to Normal->ESP Sport->ESP off. No extra light illuminated if you didn't turn the ESP off by long pressing the button. And when you do its still just the normal spinning car light. I don't know if doing it off via VCDS reprogramming vs stock programming differences though. I've heard people driven Golf Rs here saying that the stock ESC Off is still not fully off. But I don't think its fully off with VCDS anyway. I still see that light flashes sometimes when I had it off.

I think for XDS it functions later in the chain since it needs to see wheel spin for it to function. I don't know if PP cars or Clubsport has XDS+ like the non-PP car, which supposedly also brakes the rear axle to yaw the car. Normal XDS I think needs some front axle speed differential to decide when to apply inside brake. Which with VAQ it would've acted already before XDS can do something.

I coded my button to go ESP SPORT/ESP OFF and my ESP off light dies illuminate like your Clubsport. What I would be curious about is the factory torque limit setting we also had to do. This was just finally discovered a month or so ago, but before this, we would still have nannies in place cutting power, even with ECS off. I can confirm I get both the squiggly car icon and the ECS off light when I fully turn it off though

I'm not expert in the VCDS, but I believe it's as others have stated where in comes on later in order.

Cars with VAQ also have XDS+

The linked article I think answers all of your questions. Especially the last 2 paragraphs where they talk about how ECS works with VAQ

www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-eurocars/vws-vaq-diff-explained/30560

All of this interesting but still not solving the problem with interferering ESC when driving with wide slide-angles, on ice or at the track. The latest news, as i understood, fully deaktivates the torque restriction by changing vibration warning settings. Giving the car full power from start. Maybe challenging for grip and gearbox but fun.
Still ESC is a problem for advanced driving. Even de ESC-off doesn't fully deactivate.
Anyone with news on this?
Thanks
Per

alper said:

So, I've had VAG cars with the XDS system before (which I turned down to minimum for the track) but this is my first car with the VAQ e-lsd so the question that comes to mind is:

Why would you want the XDS set to anything other than OFF when you have an e-lsd like the VAQ? XDS will only slow you down by braking the inside front wheel (in that sense it's closer to ESP just acting under different conditions), before the VAQ gets the chance to work its magic and actually provide increased grip and higher cornering speeds. (which it has already done in a spectacular fashion)

The way I understand it, for track/fast road use the setting should be:

ESP OFF or Sport and XDS definitely OFF. VAQ will take care of the cornering, much better than any XDS system could (in terms of performance).


On that note, it is worth mentioning that on my MY2017 Clubsport, pressing the ESP button once switches to ESC Sport (no ASR/TCS off message) and if I long-press it, ESP comes back on.

BUT, in the car's soft menu, there is a dedicated ESP selection that has two options: ESP SPORT / ESP OFF. If I manually pick "ESP OFF" then apart from the yellow triangle, a different light lights up on the dash showing ESP OFF permanently. No coding has been done to the car regarding the ESP options. Is it really possible that the ESP can be fully turned off from the car's menu (in 100% stock setup) as that options suggests? Is it the same on standard GTI's? Sounds too good to be true...

Click to expand...

For your ESP button behavior, try a long press after you get it back to ESP On. Mine (standard GTI) is set up for short press = ASR Off, long press = ESC Sport. But if I make a short press to turn off ASR and then do a long press, it will only turn ASR back on, it doesn't go into ESC Sport. I have to long press from ESC/ASR On to get into ESC Sport.

That might be confusing to read. If the standard setting without pressing anything is 1, a short press is 2 and a long press is 3, you can only go 1 to 2, or 1 to 3. You can't get to 3 from 2.

As others have mentioned, you have XDS+, not just XDS. This is just my understanding of things, may not be correct but... I agree that XDS (and XDS+) needs to see wheel slip before it applies any brakes to try and limit said wheel slip. However, XDS+ will apply the brakes on the inside of the turn to help the car rotate in. If you turn this off, you loose the additional torque vectoring effects you'd otherwise get. This makes a bigger difference on the rear axle, and I'd bet that there is more braking action going back there than in the front. Conversely, many people have set XDS to "Strong" and noticed slower times and too aggressive brake application going into a turn. Most everyone seems to find the factory setting of "Moderate" is just right.

It might just be something you want to play with. My guess is that Strong wouldn't feel good or be faster, while off or weak might result in a faster lap but also might cause the car to not behave as well and show a little more understeer. Even if it's faster, that would be incredibly frustrating to most.

Both XDS and XDS+ don't require any presence of slip. The main difference between
them is that XDS (as on the Mk.VI GTI) only applies slight brake force onto the inner
front wheel, while XDS+ (as on the Mk.VII GTI) additionally brakes the inner rear.
Again, they both act 'pre-slippage' to prevent or reduce understeer and aid turn in.

Hard to to make a decision whether it's worthwile on track or not. I agree any brake
based nanny will inevitably put additional stress onto your brakes.

I had xds set to medium and the diff set to sport to begin with, but exiting my test corner (go through it every time I return home - enter 50-60 with a wide exit so will take full power) too hard would put me into a power understeer (from the diff ~locking) condition combined with what felt like rear brake application to push it in - this in esp sport. Pretty annoying.

Softened everything up, but winter tires now so we'll see.

In my ms3, with more power, the same tires and shorter gears, it felt like a rwd car in that corner. No traction light, just power down and go, no sense of anything being managed. I occasionally had to countersteer, pretty odd when putting all that torque through fwd, but nice.