Gimmicky waste of time/money/effort mods

[tigeo]

Chassis/body stiffeners.

Aftermarket DVs/BOVs.

 

[clownish]

So anything Forge sells, along with snap crackle pop tunes?

 

[Lord_Flexington]

I'll add here.

1. Charge Pipe setups. Not really gimmicky per say but when you start pushing 30+lb of boost using the OEM charge pipes or the VTT ones (love these) are the way to go. The more spaces you have for a weakness int he system things can blow off rather easy. (multi piece systems are not fun when they ruing your session)

2. Any PCV System thats not Racingline or Spulen (USP). If the plate isn't modified then its a waste of time and money)

3. Front Sway Bar mods- Leave your stock in. Change endlinks sure but these respond so poorly to a new FSB (as to be expected honestly, who would stiffent the front on a FWD or Fwd bias car)

4. Strut tower bars (see point 3)

5. Expensive IC's, you absolutely need an IC but imo the ebay/majesty one has been great for 4+ years now.

6. Dropping the car super low on whatever suspension. Leave some travel in there. Low does not = fast/good.

 

[jay745]

Chassis/body stiffeners.

Gonna disagree big time with that.

3. Front Sway Bar mods- Leave your stock in. Change endlinks sure but these respond so poorly to a new FSB (as to be expected honestly, who would stiffent the front on a FWD or Fwd bias car)

Disagree with this too. No clue what you're talking about at all with this statement. I had just a rear bar for a while, the car was squirrelly and all over the place. Adding a bigger front bar made it handle like a go kart.

 

[DerHase]

3. Front Sway Bar mods- Leave your stock in. Change endlinks sure but these respond so poorly to a new FSB (as to be expected honestly, who would stiffent the front on a FWD or Fwd bias car)

4. Strut tower bars (see point 3)

5. Expensive IC's, you absolutely need an IC but imo the ebay/majesty one has been great for 4+ years now.

6. Dropping the car super low on whatever suspension. Leave some travel in there. Low does not = fast/good.

I think #3 depends entirely on spring rates/how the car is set up in general. These cars' front sway bar geometry is unlike almost every single other FWD car since the links are mounted between the body and strut itself (some aftermarket coilovers may be different and mount ahead or behind the strut body?). The amount of grip added from NOT losing camber outweighs the stiffening of the front end. I did some back to back testing last weekend at VIR. Front sway bar on full stiff was notably better than on the soft setting. Of course testing stock vs others on same day isn't feasible but because of the way these cars have the sway bar geometry, it doesn't jack weight crazy to the inside like every other FWD car out there. I also went with one of the softer front bars (26mm H&R, paired with a 26mm H&R rear. Normally they suggest the 28mm front when sold as a pair).

This is because caster means the sway bar end links also travel up/down as you turn the wheel. Ackerman causes the inside strut turn to turn MORE than the outside strut. When caster and ackerman are combined by turning the wheel, the inside goes up, the outside goes down. This preloads the sway bar which makes it notably stiffer the further you turn it. Which is pretty much exactly what you'd want from a sway bar.

On most FWD cars, the end links are mounted behind the strut body. When you turn the wheels both sides move the bar up (which in itself doesn't matter), but because of ackerman, the inside is only moving upwards marginally in relation to the outside (which is also moving upwards just at a slower rate vs steering input). (note: edited to fix the explanation).

VW engineers are kind of genius for this simple solution honestly.


I will agree with 4.

Do you have any data to support #5? If so please post here or PM me a log file of a fast session somewhere with some background info!
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/inde...ta-ic-and-radiator-combo-data-palooza.425356/

#6 absolutely. Koni Special Actives on stock springs seem to be just as fast all the way from the S/F line up to Oak Tree at VIR as a $5000 set of 529 coilovers and half the Verkline catalog. Then he runs away on the back straight because IS38 S2 vs IS20 S1.

I'm sure @Mini7 can squeeze some more speed with a bit of fine tuning or rate adjustments, etc... but for a $550 set of shocks on OEM springs (with 034 camber plates and Superpro lower bushings) it definitely shows that having GOOD shocks is more important that lowering, spring rates, etc. This was FSB on full stiff BTW.




edit: And I did attempt back to back testing and while I wasn't able to drive as consistently all day as I'd have liked, comparing best peak speeds and Gs from one session to the next still points towards the FSB being stiff as the better setup. To be completely fair I would have never guessed it, and I actually started the day out on stiff specifically so I'd "have" to test. My prior car (Mazda2 set up for Gridlife Sundae Cup was on 10k/12k springs, no FSB, two RSBs, etc) was built using full suspension model for that car and YEARS of development between me and 3 others. I'm somewhat working on a model for this car. I'm not opposed to getting silly with rates but it seems to be this car is vastly different in how it responds to sway bars, and looks like getting ridiculous stiff just isn't needed. It definitely requires a SMOOTH driver to not upset the car. IMO overly stiff suspension is more beneficial in autocross for quick transitions, and masks driver input errors more than anything.

I hated the feel of a front sway bar on the Mazda2. Which was why spring rates kept going higher and higher until landing on the above setup (and 12k/12k was next to test). It had a very "springy" feeling on-center if you turned in either direction. The GTI does NOT do this.

 

[tigeo]

Gonna disagree big time with that.

Disagree with this too. No clue what you're talking about at all with this statement. I had just a rear bar for a while, the car was squirrelly and all over the place. Adding a bigger front bar made it handle like a go kart.

I believe you are in a MK6 right? On MK7, do you really think the unibody is that flexy that this is a value-add for a weekend HPDE driver vs. tires/brake pads/seat time/other more pertinent mods? I've read reports of "amazing" to "does zero" which typically means...not enough to worry about in my book.

 

[tigeo]

I'll add here.

1. Charge Pipe setups. Not really gimmicky per say but when you start pushing 30+lb of boost using the OEM charge pipes or the VTT ones (love these) are the way to go. The more spaces you have for a weakness int he system things can blow off rather easy. (multi piece systems are not fun when they ruing your session)

2. Any PCV System thats not Racingline or Spulen (USP). If the plate isn't modified then its a waste of time and money)

3. Front Sway Bar mods- Leave your stock in. Change endlinks sure but these respond so poorly to a new FSB (as to be expected honestly, who would stiffent the front on a FWD or Fwd bias car)

4. Strut tower bars (see point 3)

5. Expensive IC's, you absolutely need an IC but imo the ebay/majesty one has been great for 4+ years now.

6. Dropping the car super low on whatever suspension. Leave some travel in there. Low does not = fast/good.

Try it you might like it w/r to 3. It's a great upgrade and I don't know anyone that has tired it and not liked it. The general internet consensus that FSB = increases understeer doesn't seem to apply to the MK7s.

 

[tigeo]

I think #3 depends entirely on spring rates/how the car is set up in general. These cars' front sway bar geometry is unlike almost every single other FWD car since the links are mounted between the body and strut itself (some aftermarket coilovers may be different and mount ahead or behind the strut body?). The amount of grip added from NOT losing camber outweighs the stiffening of the front end. I did some back to back testing last weekend at VIR. Front sway bar on full stiff was notably better than on the soft setting. Of course testing stock vs others on same day isn't feasible but because of the way these cars have the sway bar geometry, it doesn't jack weight crazy to the inside like every other FWD car out there. I also went with one of the softer front bars (26mm H&R, paired with a 26mm H&R rear. Normally they suggest the 28mm front when sold as a pair).

This is because caster means the sway bar end links also travel up/down as you turn the wheel. Ackerman means the inside strut turns MORE than the outside strut. When combined and you turn the wheel, the inside goes up, the outside goes down. They somewhat cancel each other out, and preloads the bar a tiny bit (which, is it's job to be stiff). More steering input, more effective stiffness of the bar.

On most FWD cars, the end links are mounted behind the strut body. When you turn the wheels both sides move the bar up (which in itself doesn't matter), but because of ackerman, the inside is actually pulling UPWARDS further on the bar, lowering the effective stiffness of the bar, and adds a jacking effect to the chassis. More you turn the wheel, less effective stiffness of the bar.

VW engineers are kind of genius for this simple solution honestly.


I will agree with 4.

Do you have any data to support #5? If so please post here or PM me a log file of a fast session somewhere with some background info!
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/inde...ta-ic-and-radiator-combo-data-palooza.425356/

#6 absolutely. Koni Special Actives on stock springs seem to be just as fast all the way from the S/F line up to Oak Tree at VIR as a $5000 set of 529 coilovers and half the Verkline catalog. Then he runs away on the back straight because IS38 S2 vs IS20 S1.

I'm sure @Mini7 can squeeze some more speed with a bit of fine tuning or rate adjustments, etc... but for a $550 set of shocks on OEM springs (with 034 camber plates and Superpro lower bushings) it definitely shows that having GOOD shocks is more important that lowering, spring rates, etc. This was FSB on full stiff BTW.


View attachment 282846

edit: And I did attempt back to back testing and while I wasn't able to drive as consistently all day as I'd have liked, comparing best peak speeds and Gs from one session to the next still points towards the FSB being stiff as the better setup. To be completely fair I would have never guessed it, and I actually started the day out on stiff specifically so I'd "have" to test. My prior car (Mazda2 set up for Gridlife Sundae Cup was on 10k/12k springs, no FSB, two RSBs, etc) was built using full suspension model for that car and YEARS of development between me and 3 others. I'm somewhat working on a model for this car. I'm not opposed to getting silly with rates but it seems to be this car is vastly different in how it responds to sway bars, and looks like getting ridiculous stiff just isn't needed. It definitely requires a SMOOTH driver to not upset the car. IMO overly stiff suspension is more beneficial in autocross for quick transitions, and masks driver input errors more than anything.

Soft spring/good damper/front/rear sway bar seems to be a really good combo on these cars.

 

[DerHase]

Soft spring/good damper/front/rear sway bar seems to be a really good combo on these cars.

Agreed. It performs better than the sum of it's parts.

 

[tigeo]

Agreed. It performs better than the sum of it's parts.

On my wagon, the OE springs are have a lower rate than the GTI (and R) and that's another issue here...for the base Golf, I can see the sport springs as being a nice upgrade combined with dampers vs. the GTI/R folks that already have a more "sporty" suspension from the factory.

 

[jay745]

I believe you are in a MK6 right? On MK7, do you really think the unibody is that flexy that this is a value-add for a weekend HPDE driver vs. tires/brake pads/seat time/other more pertinent mods? I've read reports of "amazing" to "does zero" which typically means...not enough to worry about in my book.

Yes, but in reality I think the chassis is pretty similar across both. The people I've installed braces for on mk7s reported noticeable improvements

The general internet consensus that FSB = increases understeer doesn't seem to apply to the MK7s.

That logic ended with mk4s. Mk5/6/7 love a front bar. I don't know anyone personally who tracks with a mk8 yet so can't comment on that

 

[Lord_Flexington]

Gonna disagree big time with that.

Disagree with this too. No clue what you're talking about at all with this statement. I had just a rear bar for a while, the car was squirrelly and all over the place. Adding a bigger front bar made it handle like a go kart.

Hmm


Well maybe because my car is different than most but this is generally accepted for FWD motorsports

I Running Fortune auto 510s , RSR cage ect, and I honestly don't give two shits about how it drives when not on track.
FSB = Stiffer front and for me much more under steer, some of the other teams (non VW) straight disconnect the FSB

.
From the proper w2w race teams and TT teams i've talked/worked with its OEM FSB. (can't run without one as holy shit thats so unstable)
-
Might be driver dependent too. I want that rear as loose as possible as it suits how I drive. I had a FSB for two track days and it was honestly undrivable once I started going proper fast. The amount of push I was getting was wild. Couldn't wait to get that off my car.

Suspension is always fun, so many things at play, caster, camber, rates, etc. I can say for certain an FSB doesn't help MY car (or any of the ones I've seen competing) work better on track.



For Point 5-no data to share. Just an observation over the past few years. Have had a few drivers reach out and when you are getting into this life. No reason to spend 800+ on an IC when this will do the job. If your a fan of branding by all means but I'm making over 400+ on the same IC I started with. I will say upgrading the to the R/Audi IC is a waste of time. Majesty should be the minimum. ( i dont have any input on the stock location vs FMIC)

 

[jay745]

Hmm


Well maybe because my car is different than most but this is generally accepted for FWD motorsports

I Running Fortune auto 510s , RSR cage ect, and I honestly don't give two shits about how it drives when not on track.
FSB = Stiffer front and for me much more under steer, some of the other teams (non VW) straight disconnect the FSB

.
From the proper w2w race teams and TT teams i've talked/worked with its OEM FSB. (can't run without one as holy shit thats so unstable)
-
Might be driver dependent too. I want that rear as loose as possible as it suits how I drive. I had a FSB for two track days and it was honestly undrivable once I started going proper fast. The amount of push I was getting was wild. Couldn't wait to get that off my car.

Suspension is always fun, so many things at play, caster, camber, rates, etc. I can say for certain an FSB doesn't help MY car (or any of the ones I've seen competing) work better on track.



For Point 5-no data to share. Just an observation over the past few years. Have had a few drivers reach out and when you are getting into this life. No reason to spend 800+ on an IC when this will do the job. If your a fan of branding by all means but I'm making over 400+ on the same IC I started with. I will say upgrading the to the R/Audi IC is a waste of time. Majesty should be the minimum. ( i dont have any input on the stock location vs FMIC other th

Fair points, everything plays with each other so the setup is car dependent for sure. I don't have a cage in mine but can see how things would change significantly with that. My car is ruined for street driving, it's miserable haha but amazing on a track

 

[Lord_Flexington]

Fair points, everything plays with each other so the setup is car dependent for sure. I don't have a cage in mine but can see how things would change significantly with that. My car is ruined for street driving, it's miserable haha but amazing on a track

Saaaaaaame. Thats the fun of it all. Trying a bunch of stuff to see what works and what doesn't.!
Debating getting another mk7 (cause fuck mk8 pricing)

Just to enjoy the street life again!

 

[krs]

I'll add here.



2. Any PCV System thats not Racingline or Spulen (USP). If the plate isn't modified then its a waste of time and money)

I'm not a track weekend warrior, but my PCV setup I had to switch to absolutely solved my problem, and I had to retain the factory PCV for class rules.