Non-PP Track Setup

[WJBenGTI]

I did my first HPDE event in October of last year after 3 years of autocross and karting and now I'm hooked! I'm starting to prepare for the 2021 season now as we move into spring. My car is a 17 GTI, 6MT, non-PP, on 3 year old RE71R's with probably 70 or so autocross runs on them and a few thousand street miles. Last year to prep for the track day I bled my brakes with Motul RBF660, and put Hawk HPS Street pads and Centric High Carbon Rotors on the front. The rear was left with factory brakes and rotors. The track day was mostly rainy so the only time I got any significant heat in my brakes was for about 5 minutes in my last session when the track was drying, so I can't really judge this setup. However, there was a ton of brake dust and pad transfer after my last session. I've attached a photo (wheels are black when they are clean).

I'm going to be tracking my car 5+ times this year and I'm looking for mostly brake advice from any one else doing HPDE's on non-PP cars. I'm planning on adding the RS3 cooling ducts and bleeding the brakes with high temp fluid again. But, I'm looking at other pad and rotor options as well. Are there any good pad, rotor, and fluid combos that seem to resist fade without upgrading to an expensive big brake kit? It'd be ideal to have a pad that was daily-able but I could swap pads for HPDE weekends if needed.
Is it worth disabling or limiting the XDS system to avoid cooking the brakes while accelerating out of a corner?

Non brake related questions:
I am considering fully disabling the ECS/TCS system so I can learn how to drive the car without constant intervention whenever the car has any noticeable slip in "ECS Sport Mode," is this common practice for HPDE's on these cars?
I've seen a few suggestions on alignment (with stock suspension), is there an agreed upon "Baseline" HPDE setup that is recommended?
Any other upgrades I should consider? The car is a daily on poorly maintained Michigan roads so I'm thinking of things like a rear ARB, dampers, and maybe a proper diff, (after I get enough seat time with my "stock" setup, of course) but I'd be hesitant to put it on stiffer springs or coilovers.

Thanks!

 

[Will_]

Ok, I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but my car is non-PP and I upgraded to the Macan BBK for like $900 and it was totally worth it. The bang for your buck is awesome. I didn’t dare track the car with non-PP brakes lol. If you’re sticking with stock brakes,I like Ferodo DS2500 pads for mixed daily/track use. The RS3 ducts help a little too.

But, to answer your other questions. Regarding TC/ESC - I’ve found that when turning it “off” (TC off/ESC sport) it really only intervenes when I’m in a decent slide that would slow me down anyway - ie it doesn’t prevent me from going faster. I haven’t fully disabled it yet, and at the moment I don’t feel a need to.

Alignment wise, the front is fairly limited from the factory. Many people for AutoX recommend 0 rear toe to help the car rotate more. I have mine set a 1/32”. I set front toe to 0, have 2.5 front camber and 2.0 rear camber. Unfortunately with stock suspension I don’t think you can get front camber past 1.0 or so, but you’ll want as much as possible.

A larger rear sway bar makes a huge difference, I would highly recommend. I run a 25mm Eibach bar.

 

[GTI Jake]

I realize you can bandaid the non-PP brakes, but for $900 it would be silly not to have vastly improved braking for not much more money.

Personally I got ST40 355mm for a smoking deal, which turned into getting R32 brakes for a next to nothing (free pads, rotors, lines, & fluid).

At the end of the day just drive smart and keep up with your maintenance and you’ll be ok, but driving with whatever you choose. Also, I realize you don’t need to upgrade the rears (but you did read I got the consumables for free right?).

RSB is the best cheap mod along with alignment as mentioned above. Personally I’ve got a H&R 26mm

 

[Gvazquez]

Definitely turn off xds. I didnt do that and after 4 sessions my brand new brakes were cooked metal to metal. After trying different things I've added bigger rear brakes and more aggressive rear pad and zeroed out the rear toe vs. a little in and the rear is too squirrely on high speed braking. Im gonna either put stock rear pads back on or toe in the rear some. I liked my braking more with the stock rear brakes

 

[WJBenGTI]

I upgraded to the Macan BBK for like $900 and it was totally worth it. The bang for your buck is awesome.

I was not aware that I could get such a big brake upgrade for that price! I'm currently leaning towards seeing what I can do on the stock hardware with decent pads and cooling but I'll consider the Macan upgrade for the future.

Definitely turn off xds. I didnt do that and after 4 sessions my brand new brakes were cooked metal to metal.

Was this on stock non-pp brakes with stock pads and rotors? What is your current front brake setup? I haven't gotten into the car with VCDS or OBD11 yet but I know there are levels to XDS. Did you turn it fully off or just turn it down?

 

[FlyingNugget]

I ran non-PP brakes for track days for 2 years before upgrading. My setup was Centric blank rotors, Gloc-R10 pads, and RBF600 fluid.

The R10 pads will basically never fade, will always bite hard, and will last many track days. The downside is that they squeal a lot on the street, are dusty, and eat rotors faster than OEM. I ran this setup on 3 very different tracks pretty hard and never had any issues. I bled fluid and checked visually for any issues after every track day(as you should regardless of your setup).

I don't think you need to upgrade brakes in order to go have fun at a HPDE day. I suggest getting proper track pads/fluid, and then go have fun with what you have. Obviously respect your brakes, regardless of whether thats PP, BBK, or non-pp.

You don't need to fully disable XSD or ESC
- ESC Sport is fine. Go play with it and determine afterwards if you want to turn it off. It will help you to not spin out when braking and lifting at the wrong time.
- XSD may actually help you accelerate out of a corner depending on your setup. I'd suggest just leaving it alone to start, and then adjust later if you feel it's necessary.

I run 0 toe F/R.
-1.8 camber rear
-2.4 camber front (camber plates)

Lastly, if you're going to do 5+ track days, you may want to consider a different tire for next time. I tried running Re71r and they lasted 18 autox runs, and 1 track day(bald at end of day) -- the track day killed them.

 

[AceHammer]

If you're tracking you should consider front camber plates. They make a big difference when pushing the car hard and will help with tire wear on the track.
RSB is awesome get it. (If your car is driven around in the winter buy new end links to go with it, the stupid hollow stock bolt will probably break on removal.)

Lowering springs also make a big difference but you get an increase in harshness. Doing shocks to match em does help a ton. Most people who complain are running just spings on their 50k mile stock shocks. (I did this do not recommend) Suspension is a bottomless pit however so beware.
Coilovers you have to spend money. If you get a cheap ass kit expect a cheap ass ride, if you spend the money people say coils can ride more comfortably than stock. After destroying my stock shocks in Boston with springs, I gave in and got a b16 kit.

If you lower the car and want to track it, do it right. That means sway bar end links, having an alignment done by a competent shop, replacing mounts/hardware, etc.

A powerflex dogbone insert won't help as much with only stock power but will still make a good difference for cheap.


Even if you are completely stock powerwise get an intercooler. You don't have to spend a ton. I'm running a hybrid is38 and have done a bunch of events with a 300 dollar eBay IC with no issues.
If you start running aggressive tires or suspension, you will need a full PCV replacement, unless you want to get flagged for blowing smoke on the track.

Not sure if the GTI has this on by default, but I enabled my oil temp gauge on my A3 as it is usually only shown on S3.


The factory rear rotors/pads suck. Running aggressive front pads with the rear stock would cause my back end to get squirrelly under hard braking, plus the fact that the rotors being non-vented means they run hot, and my stock pads pretty much crumbled.
IMO if you are going to track a lot keep an eye on eBay for used pp rear setups, they fit 17s. I got a full setup for cheap. This did make a good difference in brake stability in the rear. I ran the stock 312mm upfront and the 310mm in the back and I found it to be a great setup. I just finally switched the Macaan setup but have yet to try it out on the track.
I've seen deals like this pop up a couple of times a month.

For pads, I've run EBC yellow stuff upfront and red in the rear and found it to be a good compromise in performance and streetabiliy. The yellows will eat rotors though.

I realize you can bandaid the non-PP brakes, but for $900 it would be silly not to have vastly improved braking for not much more money.

Personally I got ST40 355mm for a smoking deal, which turned into getting R32 brakes for a next to nothing (free pads, rotors, lines, & fluid).

At the end of the day just drive smart and keep up with your maintenance and you’ll be ok, but driving with whatever you choose. Also, I realize you don’t need to upgrade the rears (but you did read I got the consumables for free right?).

RSB is the best cheap mod along with alignment as mentioned above. Personally I’ve got a H&R 26mm

I mean I put my entire setup together for just about 800. The only thing else I could have added was the high temp seals for like another 50. Right now the ST40 kit is going for 2.6k


This platform with just a few modifications is very capable, but be aware it is easy to fall down the rabbit hole of endless mods.
Start with the basics and go from there.

 

[Gvazquez]

I was not aware that I could get such a big brake upgrade for that price! I'm currently leaning towards seeing what I can do on the stock hardware with decent pads and cooling but I'll consider the Macan upgrade for the future.


Was this on stock non-pp brakes with stock pads and rotors? What is your current front brake setup? I haven't gotten into the car with VCDS or OBD11 yet but I know there are levels to XDS. Did you turn it fully off or just turn it down?

This was on my ttrs brake setup. They were brembo pads which were more of a street pad but still shouldn't have cooked like that. The cobalt xr2 pads im running now are amazing. This setup stops like an animal. I turned it fully off as it didn't feel like it was helping but only wearing the brakes prematurely

 

[BGrade]

Regardless of PP or Non-PP car, this is a great thread. Thanks for all the info guys.

I'm about to start tracking my 17 sport. So I have been searching the web for info like this!

 

[JackRabbitSLIM]

Be realistic with yourself. If you are pushing hard, you'll need more brake. In that case, just buy them. If you are new and tentative (this is not making fun), brakes won't be as important. Basically, when you start pushing braking zones you'll need more brake.

If you are newer, keep in mind:
Intermediate group is the most dangerous place to be. Just enough experience to go hard and just enough inexperience to get into trouble.
Don't let yourself get frustrated about lap times under any circumstances. You can't win but you can definitely lose. I have lost, it's an expensive lesson.

 

[up4speed]

I track my car with non PP brakes as well. I purchased Ferodo 2500 front pads and Yellow stuff rear pads (unfortunately Ferodo doesn't make rears for non PP), Centric Cryogenically treated rotors, Motul brake fluid, and RS3 brake ducts. I was surprised to find out that the brakes held up really well, all day doing 6 or 7 - 25 minute sessions. One section on the track required me to go from 123mph down to approximately 45mph doing threshold braking, so they had to take a good amount of abuse. So far I'm happy with the performance considering, but would want a little more security of bigger brakes. The only reason that I didn't do the BBK yet is because the larger brakes don't fit under the wheels without spacers, and I'm not comfortable using spacers on a track. I will probably purchase the PP brakes at some point in the near future, just to at least improve them a little, since they fit under the wheels perfectly.
As far as electronic interventions, my advice is to really focus on driving smoothly. Smooth is fast, you will have way less intervention, and it also beats up the tires and brakes MUCH less.

 

[JackRabbitSLIM]

I'm not comfortable using spacers on a track.

Is this a thing?

If you can't be convinced otherwise, maybe a stud conversion?

 

[Will_]

Is this a thing?

If you can't be convinced otherwise, maybe a stud conversion?

I think (and I’m paraphrasing a distant memory here so take this for what it’s worth) spacers add stress to the wheel hub due to the additional weight+moving the mounting point out further. Wheel bearings can fail earlier. On some cars people replace wheel bearings like every other track season if they’re driven a lot.

 

[JackRabbitSLIM]

I think (and I’m paraphrasing a distant memory here so take this for what it’s worth) spacers add stress to the wheel hub due to the additional weight+moving the mounting point out further. Wheel bearings can fail earlier. On some cars people replace wheel bearings like every other track season if they’re driven a lot.

Hahaha, I hope everyone has the OEM wheel offset then...

 

[AceHammer]

Pretty sure the Mk7 GTI/R uses the same wheel bearing as a Tiguan, if that gives anyone a bit of peace of mind

Added link - https://parts.vw.com/p/Volkswagen_2...d-Hub-Assembly-Front/71653092/8S0498625A.html

A Tiguan weighs about 700 lbs more than a GTI as well. IMO a mild spacer (5mm) should really pose no issue to a wheel bearing used in a midsized SUV that can supposedly off-road decently well.
The rs3 also uses the same bearing and people are running 800hp track monsters with no reports of failures.