Seat upgrades & safety rules

[golfdave]

I didn't say it couldn't happen, but that it is an low likelihood scenario in a street car. Number of fires on track/total number of off track excursions is likely v. small. The only fire I have heard of at an event I participated in was a grass fire b/c the car's wheel fell off and it came to rest with the hot exhaust system against the grass which would be a good use of the fire extinguisher in your car if you carry one (I have two in my car). Numbers to me say a fire suit isn't necessary b/c the risk is low to start with of a fire in a street car as well as you can more easily get out of a street car vs. full caged/harness/seat which takes more work, but sure, at some point it can/does happen and wearing a fire suit would be a good thing in those cases...I've at least considered it, you don't see many beyond full track cars at these events. You don't control every risk every day (but you control the ones you think are a risk which will be different than mine), just like you don't drive with a helmet/fire suit on a public road where the risk of a serious crash on a daily basis is greater than doing a weekend track event.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40163966/cars-catching-fire-new-york-times-real-statistics/

I've always had a fire extinguisher at arms reach from the drivers seat in all my cars...When I rolled my car I managed to take the key out of the ignition straight away whilst still hanging upside down when the car was spinning on its roof....

As my door was totally jammed up on the roof/road & the passenger door was partly jammed up against the grass embankment & we had to get out using the passenger door...but the passenger had to get out first & needed a hand...in those minutes my greatest fear was a fire starting, be it by fluids on a hot metal item, or by an electrical short/spark...I've seen it happen...

I'd say to the OP & anyone that if you're starting track stuff, you should at least have a fire extinguisher & seatbelt belt cutter/window breaker device...(even as everyday car items)

Then driving gloves for more grip on the steering wheel & maybe race/club boots, or thin soled lace up loafers/deck shoes, for more feel of the pedals & so your feet don't get caught up by the shoe on the pedal next-door, & clothing that is comfy & allows good movement of legs & arms..

Then look at helmets, but if you wear a helmet you really should have a neck support or HANS type device to control the extra mass/weight you have placed on your neck which place's more strain on it in an accident let alone normal track driving side forces.

Then & only then look at cages & different seats & harnesses...as you will need to get helmets as soon as you fit cages which may be too close to your head....& at this stage maybe look at suits....

The only other thing is any events you enter, if they specify certain stuff, then you have no option but to fit it!...& if thats cages/multipoint harnesses, they may specify safety gear such as external battery isolators/shut-offs also!...

P.S...
This is the lower south west area of the UK fire service quote:-"Each year we help around 650 people whose vehicle has caught fire. Fires are most likely to start when you're driving which can be a terrifying experience"....

https://www.dsfire.gov.uk/safety/on-the-road/car-and-vehicle-fires

 

[golfdave]

Ok so this is the UK figures

Car fires in UK
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fire-and-rescue-incident-statistics-england-year-ending-march-2023/fire-and-rescue-incident-statistics-england-year-ending-march-2023#:~:text=In the year ending March 2023, there were 19,135 road,with 5 years ago (22,457)

QUOTE:-
In the year ending March 2023, there were 19,135 road vehicle fires. This number has:

• increased by 4.1% compared with the previous year (18,382)
• decreased by 15% compared with 5 years ago (22,457)
• decreased by 5.8% compared with 10 years ago (20,321)

Road vehicle fires accounted for 29% of primary fires and 11% of total fires in the year ending March 2023, virtually unchanged compared with the previous year (29% and 12%).
END QUOTE

Car accidents/casualties in UK
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-provisional-results-2022/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-provisional-results-2022#:~:text=(England only).-,Headline figures,of 11% compared to 2019

QUOTE:-

Severity	2022	% change from 2019	% change from 2012
Killed	1,695	-3	-3
Seriously injured (adjusted)	28,101	-3	-16
KSI (adjusted)	29,795	-3	-15
Slightly injured (adjusted)	106,206	-13	-34
All casualties	136,002	-11	-31

Road User Type	2022	% change from 2019	% change from 2012
Car occupants	781	6	-2
Pedestrians	376	-20	-11
Motorcyclists	354	5	8
Pedal cyclists	85	-15	-28
Goods vehicles occupants	64	-3	4
Other vehicle occupants	30	1	117
Bus or coach occupants	4	-71	-64

END QUOTE

Basically more chance of being involved in a vehicle fire than being killed on the roads...

Do I drive in a flame proof suit?...No its too inconvenient to keep changing clothes...but I do carry a fire extinguisher in my car! If I was doing track work I'd most likely wear a race/club suit...but thats personal choice...

 

[tigeo]

Interesting data GD!

Here are some fast pulls I grabbed for the U.S.:

So the stats appear (should be close to at least) for the U.S.:

0.6% chance if invovled in a crash that it will be fatal.

30% chance if invovled in a crash that you will be injured.

3% chance if involved in a crash that you will have a fire - this one may be off b/c often when I've seen a vehicle fire it's not invovled with a crash, just a burning car on side of road so it's likely a lower number for crashes is my take as some just catch on fire!

Interesting stats but too bad we don't have them for HPDEs in street cars when wearing your seat belts and a helmet....I'd support they are less than the street numbers but that's just a hunch b/c you will have 100% belts being worn (a chunk of car crash injuries in the road are due to no belts...dumbasses...) and a helmet b/c every group/club has that a requirement.

On the windows, over here, it's almost universal that you have to have your windows down for that reason. Audi Club will allow them up with turn-signal point-bys vs. arm out window but that is rare in the U.S. it seems. Fire extinguisher close by is always a good idea. Gloves are a good idea.

 

[golfdave]

@tigeo ......when I was looking at data on the 'ring for crashes, I came across a UK website which is run listing advice etc for the people who want to go to the 'ring.....on this website is was quoting other crash data on track days saying something about crashes where the driver wore a helmet but the passenger did not..& the passenger suffered injuries etc 15% more of the time than the driver etc...

I have an old (December 2017) VW Driver mag article on when they interviewed Benny Leuchter on his record 'ring lap in the MK7 Clubsport S.

The car had:-

1. Manual gearbox only
2. Air Con delete
3. 3dr body (lightest)
4. Most basic "media" infotainment screen "Composition 5" screen"
5. The optional factory Recaro wingbacks with harness slots, seats are not a fixed rigid back.
6. A black half cage bolted in (99% certain its the Wiechers)
7. Red Schroth harnesses (4-point) (most likely their Profi II-FE asm harness which is ECE approved for road use & FIA 88554/89 approved) which clipped into the OEM seatbuckle lock....I can't tell where the shoulder straps went to, but most likely to the Weichers cage as they do proper harness bars to get the strap angle right.
8. The car was also fitted with an emergency shut off/stop button mounted in the centre console cup holder (in the smoking pack ash tray)

He (Benny Leuchte) was wearing his "VW Driving Experience" (thats one of his other jobs as VW driver) branded race suit, Sparco gloves, race boots & a full face helmet..NO HANS or similar neck device...

Heres a web photo from the VW press release...

 

[tigeo]

@tigeo ......when I was looking at data on the 'ring for crashes, I came across a UK website which is run listing advice etc for the people who want to go to the 'ring.....on this website is was quoting other crash data on track days saying something about crashes where the driver wore a helmet but the passenger did not..& the passenger suffered injuries etc 15% more of the time than the driver etc...

I have an old (December 2017) VW Driver mag article on when they interviewed Benny Leuchter on his record 'ring lap in the MK7 Clubsport S.

The car had:-

1. Manual gearbox only
2. Air Con delete
3. 3dr body (lightest)
4. Most basic "media" infotainment screen "Composition 5" screen"
5. The optional factory Recaro wingbacks with harness slots, seats are not a fixed rigid back.
6. A black half cage bolted in (99% certain its the Wiechers)
7. Red Schroth harnesses (4-point) (most likely their Profi II-FE asm harness which is ECE approved for road use & FIA 88554/89 approved) which clipped into the OEM seatbuckle lock....I can't tell where the shoulder straps went to, but most likely to the Weichers cage as they do proper harness bars to get the strap angle right.
8. The car was also fitted with an emergency shut off/stop button mounted in the centre console cup holder (in the smoking pack ash tray)

He (Benny Leuchte) was wearing his "VW Driving Experience" (thats one of his other jobs as VW driver) branded race suit, Sparco gloves, race boots & a full face helmet..NO HANS or similar neck device...

Heres a web photo from the VW press release...

View attachment 296970

Awesome!!!

Man...4 points get you a seat in the corner over here...folks lose their fucking minds over it when you talk about it. Schroth Quick Fit Pros (I think that's what this is if it's clicked into the OE seatbelt recepticles - that's what is sold here) are a nice piece of gear to keep you planted if worn correctly (low/tight across the waist) plus have the ASM bit to release so you can move a bit like in a 3-point so basically no safer than a 3-point but also no more dangerous. They have the higher angle for the rear straps vs. a traditional harness setup (less and 20 degrees) but that's b/c it was tested/certified this way and is perfectly safe/legal for street use (DOT) but many don't believe it/many clubs have an issue with these out of ignorance in my opinion. The other challenge is that they are tested/certified for only certain vehicles and the MK7 isn't on that list b/c the seats weren't tested for seat back strength to ensure the harness passing through/down like that won't cause an issue. It's too bad Schroth hasn't certified the MK7, so many of them...also the third-party reseller/vendors are a bit sketchy as they sell these as fitting the MK7 but if you actually spend the time to read Schroth's info, they are not on the list and they state that you should only use them if your vehicle is listed. B/c of the ASM on the belt, a HANS isn't necessary b/c you aren't being held in rigidly to the seat like a standard non-ASM harness but suprising he isn't wearing one anyway. Those seats are RADICAL!

 

[golfdave]

Awesome!!!

Man...4 points get you a seat in the corner over hear...folks lose their fucking minds over it when you talk about it. Schroth Quick Fit Pros (I think that's what this is if it's clicked into the OE seatbelt recepticles - that's what is sold here) are a nice piece of gear to keep you planted if worn correctly (low/tight across the waist) plus have the ASM bit to release so you can move a bit like in a 3-point so basically no safer than a 3-point but also no more dangerous. They have the higher angle for the rear straps vs. a traditional harness setup (less and 20 degrees) but that's b/c it was tested/certified this way and is perfectly safe/legal for street use (DOT) but many don't believe it/many clubs have an issue with these out of ignorance in my opinion. The other challenge is that they are tested/certified for only certain vehicles and the MK7 isn't on that list b/c the seats weren't tested for seat back strength to ensure the harness passing through/down like that won't cause an issue. It's too bad Schroth hasn't cerfied the MK7, so many of them...also the third-party reseller/vendors are a bit sketchy as they sell these as fitting the MK7 but if you actually spend the time to read Schroth's info, they are not on the list and they state that you should only use them if your vehicle is listyed. B/c of the ASM on the belt, a HANS isn't necessary b/c you aren't being held in rigidly to the seat like a standard non-ASM harness but suprising he isn't wearing one anyway. Those seats are RADICAL!

The set up in the car (as per photo) is basically full road legal over here...ok not "race"...the harness is to an FIA standard, but its way better then a 3 point OEM harness....if set up/adjusted correctly...I think too many people tighten the shoulder straps (on the 4points) up too much before doing the "lap" section...this resulting in the whole harness up around the upper chest/chin!....idiots!!

The cage is there to take the shoulder straps at the right angle & proving additional roll over protection.....ok its not a full roll cage...& I think its bolted to stronger body metal than some of the other half cages I've seen for the MK7, & its better than OEM....

I think its the best "daily driver who does autocross" set up...yes its a compromise, but other than that its either full on cages & 5/6point harnesses (which hampers getting in & out..& you really should wear a helmet all the time in one of those due to the closeness of the head to the side bars)...or just the OEM safety stuff....

Forgot about ASM-vs-HANS requirements...but as you say even a neck protector, the head has more weight on it & corning forces & whiplash really will hurt!...

You can get FHR (HANS) devices, FIA approved & starting at a a couple hundred £...not much...but the helmet has have the posts mounted on it....."foam type" neck supports are really karting

 

[Track R]

@tigeo ......when I was looking at data on the 'ring for crashes, I came across a UK website which is run listing advice etc for the people who want to go to the 'ring.....on this website is was quoting other crash data on track days saying something about crashes where the driver wore a helmet but the passenger did not..& the passenger suffered injuries etc 15% more of the time than the driver etc...

I have an old (December 2017) VW Driver mag article on when they interviewed Benny Leuchter on his record 'ring lap in the MK7 Clubsport S.

The car had:-

1. Manual gearbox only
2. Air Con delete
3. 3dr body (lightest)
4. Most basic "media" infotainment screen "Composition 5" screen"
5. The optional factory Recaro wingbacks with harness slots, seats are not a fixed rigid back.
6. A black half cage bolted in (99% certain its the Wiechers)
7. Red Schroth harnesses (4-point) (most likely their Profi II-FE asm harness which is ECE approved for road use & FIA 88554/89 approved) which clipped into the OEM seatbuckle lock....I can't tell where the shoulder straps went to, but most likely to the Weichers cage as they do proper harness bars to get the strap angle right.
8. The car was also fitted with an emergency shut off/stop button mounted in the centre console cup holder (in the smoking pack ash tray)

He (Benny Leuchte) was wearing his "VW Driving Experience" (thats one of his other jobs as VW driver) branded race suit, Sparco gloves, race boots & a full face helmet..NO HANS or similar neck device...

Heres a web photo from the VW press release...

View attachment 296970

He ran the same setup I've had for over 3yrs except his bar had no H-brace on the main hoop and X-brace on the rear. He used the same Schroth Profi II FE belts with the tail straps attached to the rear bar at the bottom like most of the Germans you see at the ring with Pole Position ABE's. The dummy buckle in the pic was to trick the car into having the belt latched since the driver side Wingbacks is the only seat that has the buckle wired to the SRS.

I still run this setup except and I sold the Wingbacks for a set of Pole Position ABE's.

 

[tigeo]

The set up in the car (as per photo) is basically full road legal over here...ok not "race"...the harness is to an FIA standard, but its way better then a 3 point OEM harness....if set up/adjusted correctly...I think too many people tighten the shoulder straps (on the 4points) up too much before doing the "lap" section...this resulting in the whole harness up around the upper chest/chin!....idiots!!

The cage is there to take the shoulder straps at the right angle & proving additional roll over protection.....ok its not a full roll cage...& I think its bolted to stronger body metal than some of the other half cages I've seen for the MK7, & its better than OEM....

I think its the best "daily driver who does autocross" set up...yes its a compromise, but other than that its either full on cages & 5/6point harnesses (which hampers getting in & out..& you really should wear a helmet all the time in one of those due to the closeness of the head to the side bars)...or just the OEM safety stuff....

Forgot about ASM-vs-HANS requirements...but as you say even a neck protector, the head has more weight on it & corning forces & whiplash really will hurt!...

You can get FHR (HANS) devices, FIA approved & starting at a a couple hundred £...not much...but the helmet has have the posts mounted on it....."foam type" neck supports are really karting

As always GD, you are a wealth of info. Merry Christmas dude.

 

[golfdave]

He ran the same setup I've had for over 3yrs except his bar had no H-brace on the main hoop and X-brace on the rear. He used the same Schroth Profi II FE belts with the tail straps attached to the rear bar at the bottom like most 98% of Germans you see at the ring with Pole Position ABE's. The dummy buckle in the pic was to trick the car into having the belt latched since the driver Wingbacks are the only seat that has the buckle wired to the SRS.

I still run this setup except I sold the Wingbacks for a set of Pole Position ABE's.

View attachment 296977

View attachment 296979View attachment 296980View attachment 296981

I remember having that conversation with you re the Weichers roll cages & the optional bars!!....nice gear!...As I said I couldn't quite see where he had the shoulder straps fitted to exactly....thanks for the clarity!

I did wonder about the "extra" bits around the lock in the photo of his car.......forgot about the SRS!......

Wingbacks I take it are heavier..& they had problems with the rear covers/lots of creaking??

 

[golfdave]

As always GD, you are a wealth of info. Merry Christmas dude.

Many thanks....Christmas on Monday ....."runs & hides"...

 

[tigeo]

It is interesting watching Misha's ring videos how the HPDE world over here worries a lot of about things and there, unless he's in a car with a full cage, no helmet. In one he actually talked about why. I'm surprised it's the opposite of where you would think the U.S. would land w/r to safety bits vs. Europe...the Europeans are a bit more lax it seems w/r to cages/harness/etc. for street/ring/etc. than we are here on track...wonder why?

 

[Track R]

I remember having that conversation with you re the Weichers roll cages & the optional bars!!....nice gear!...As I said I couldn't quite see where he had the shoulder straps fitted to exactly....thanks for the clarity!

I did wonder about the "extra" bits around the lock in the photo of his car.......forgot about the SRS!......

Wingbacks I take it are heavier..& they had problems with the rear covers/lots of creaking??

Correct the Wingbacks had noise due to being 2pc GFK and the way the covers were held in.

I had Ash from Awesome GTI Store help be the middle man in a deal between a private seller in the UK and in turn he forwarded me the seats to California, they were almost brand new out of a Scirocco R.

I can dig up photos of Bennys setup his tail straps were attached like mine.

 

[Track R]

It is interesting watching Misha's ring videos how the HPDE world over here worries a lot of about things and there, unless he's in a car with a full cage, no helmet. In one he actually talked about why. I'm surprised it's the opposite of where you would think the U.S. would land w/r to safety bits vs. Europe...the Europeans are a bit more lax it seems w/r to cages/harness/etc. for street/ring/etc. than we are here on track...wonder why?

US Lawyers lol

 

[Track R]

ask Maody he runs the same setup...... https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/inde...gti-tcr-on-tracks-mostly-nordschleife.382519/

 

[tigeo]

That's a sweet trunk organizer.