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CTS turbo inlet pipe

AtlantaDad

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Cumming, GA
Can't believe I saying this (not a huge fan of them by any stretch of the imagination), but I'll probably spend the extra $50 on the APR TIP. It appears to be better engineered than the CTS, BMS, Leyo, etc. alternatives. Though I wish they'd post some data aside from just flow numbers. (Outflows the factory unit: 441 cfm vs 379 cfm @ 28” of H2O)

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

Pingers

Ready to race!
Location
Cape Coral, FL
Can't believe I saying this (not a huge fan of them by any stretch of the imagination), but I'll probably spend the extra $50 on the APR TIP. It appears to be better engineered than the CTS, BMS, Leyo, etc. alternatives. Though I wish they'd post some data aside from just flow numbers. (Outflows the factory unit: 441 cfm vs 379 cfm @ 28” of H2O)

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I installed my APR Inlet today on the stock airbox and otherwise stock car because ECS sent me someone elses returned Kohlefaser Luft-Technik Intake System with broken tabs on the CF lid. I'm not salty at all. :D

Anyways, Butt dyno says it has a little more pep in the lower RPM range. Sound is definitely louder than the stock inlet. Install took me 35-40 minutes. It was 95 degrees in my garage with a dewpoint of 77. I spent a lot of time wiping sweat, lol. Only thing that took me a bit to figure out was installing the new inlet. APR gives you a new o-ring and it's a tight fit onto the turbo. :eek:
 

cagti

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
CA
I am very skeptical these inlets yield a performance improvement. On the contrary, I think there is a very real possibility that they degrade performance and shorten turbocharger lifetime.

TL;DR

90˚ elbow turbo inlets are an engine packaging compromise that introduce pressure differentials into the air flow resulting from the distance between the inner curve and outer curve of the bend. The pressure difference creates air flow separation and turbulence (as I understand it) in the airflow - reducing the turbo’s efficiency. The pressure difference also has adverse effects on the compressor blades and turbocharger bearings - shortening the turbo’s life.

One of the simplest methods of reducing the differential on the curve is to reduce the distance between the inner and outer curves of the bend. That is what the stock inlet shape looks like it’s doing to me. The aftermarket inlets do the exact opposite by creating a much larger distance between the inner and outer curves of the bend - increasing air flow separation.

Wall of text:

I am not a mechanical engineer or fluid dynamics expert but I did some googling, so I’m dangerous.

I have a GTI. My curiosity was piqued when I first stumbled on these aftermarket turbo inlets. It seemed like such a simple ‘no brainer’ mod that the original design puzzled me. Surely, the turbo engineers must have had a reason, right?

Maybe it was a market segmentation ploy. Lower performance GTI gets the air restricting inlet while higher performance models get a bigger inlet. But the Golf R and Audi S3 have the same inlet design. So that’s not it. In itself, the fact that the Golf R shares the same part as the GTI implies the inlet is more than adequate for the GTI with its smaller turbo.

I started searching for academic papers on turbo inlet designs. Interestingly, turbocharger inlet design appears to be a flourishing field of academic research. It has seen a resurgence in the last decade or so because of the move to smaller turbocharged engines to meet emissions standards. There is nothing settled about inlet design and new designs are being researched using computer simulation and lab experimentation. Unfortunately, much of the research is not publicly available due to the restrictive nature of academic publishers, like Elsevier. I was able to find some though.

One of the earliest papers on turbo inlet designs is from 1946. It is about airplane superchargers at higher air velocities but the principles are the same. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930081827.pdf

The paper lays out the problem:

A poorly designed inlet elbow will produce a distorted velocity profile at the impeller inlet and will have a high pressure loss.

A distorted velocity distribution will therefore exist at the elbow outlet with high velocity flow at the inside of the bend and low velocity flow at the outside.

Another effect of the formation of the pressure gradient across the flow path is the formation of adverse pressure gradients along the flow path. In order to form the pressure gradient across the flow path that is required to turn the flow, the static pressure along the outside surface of the bend, in an elbow of constant cross section, must increase from the initial value upstream of the bend to a maximum at the point where the curvature of the air stream is greatest and then decrease to the downstream value. Conversely, the static pressure along the inside surface must first decrease from the upstream value to a minimum at the point where the curvature of the air stream is greatest and then increase to the downstream value. Thus, it can be seen that pressure gradients in opposition to the flow are set up in two regions along the elbow boundaries. If these adverse pressure gradients are sufficient to overcome the momentum of the air stream in the boundary layer, flow separation and possible back flow will result with their consequent losses and detrimental effect on the outlet velocity profile.

And then proposes a fix:

It is possible by using a passage of high aspect ratio (ratio of width to thickness), to reduce these pressure gradients because the decreased distance between the inside and outside walls results in a smaller pressure differential across the flow passage. In addition, in a high-aspect-ratio elbow the secondary flow losses are reduced by the natural restriction of this flow to the relatively small regions along the sides of the passage.

Another interesting item I was able to find is a patent application: https://www.google.com/patents/US20100221107?cl=en

The patent goes over various inlet designs and explains their limitations. In particular figure 2 shows what looks a lot like the aftermarket turbo inlets in this thread. The application has this to say about it:

[0010] First, at the inlet to the duct the pressure gradient at any point in the plane perpendicular to the centerline of the duct is small usually due to the length of the duct. Downstream of the bend in the duct the pressure gradient in the plane shown in FIG. 2 is so extreme as to sometimes not provide positive pressure past the centerline of the compressor wheel, measured in a plane perpendicular to the axis of the compressor wheel. In aerodynamic testing of a commercially available, as seen in FIG. 2, with a tight radius bend, it was seen that, the flow of air (100) at the inlet to the duct was uniform across the plane of the inlet. As the flow of inlet air (101) reaches the bend in the duct, the energy is sufficient to support attached flow around the initial radius of the bend. Further around the tight inner bend radius separation (112) of the flow is sufficiently significant that the remainder of the flow (102) does not reach the centerline of the duct.

[0011] Second, typical turbocharger compressor wheel blades are excited through several orders. For commercial turbochargers, the design criteria typically are such that the blades are designed to exclude up to the fourth order of vibration. For a reasonable pressure gradient across the inlet to the compressor wheel, this design criteria is sufficient to prevent HCF failure in the blades over a turbocharger compressor's multiple lifetimes. However when the pressure gradient across the inlet to the compressor wheel is severe, as in the case of the tested inlet ducts in FIG. 2 through 6, the excitation is sufficient to cause HCF failure in blades of compressor wheels which would otherwise be OK. In these non-symmetric pressure gradient ducts each blade of the compressor wheel sees a once-per-revolution pressure pulse ultimately leading to HCF failures.

[0012] Third, as a result of flow separation in the bend, there is a significant average pressure drop across the compressor wheel inlet. This change in inlet pressure or flow can, in the worst case, cause the compressor to go into surge, or, in a less violent case, cause a loss of pressure ratio and efficiency, as can be seen in FIG. 9.

In summary, the plain elbow is not efficient at best and can lead to turbo failure at worst.

The application’s invention is drawn in figures 7-9 and appears, to me, to be more similar to (not exactly like) the GTI’s stock inlet design. There is quite a bit of discussion on the merits of this design in sections 0039-0052.

There is a lot of a research out there on the topic and much of it is done using computer simulations (so called CFD or Computational Fluid Dynamics). Given the tiny bit of academic research I was able to read online, I think the GTI’s (and R’s) particular inlet design is not a mistake or oversight. It’s likely the result of extensive computer simulation and experimental verification around air flow optimization. I don’t think the same can be said about these aftermarket designs which appear to be obsolete since 1946.
 

0bLiViOuS

Go Kart Champion
Location
Orange County
While I think the stock TIP serves a purpose in a stock car, I believe it introduces a restriction on modified cars. As we increase boost we increase the overall PR. The larger inlet (using data published by VWR) would bring the PR closer to stock values, reducing load on the compressor turbine.

This is where I believe any gains are present. By shifting to a more efficient PR of the turbo, it will reduce IATs and produce denser air which can in turn be used for more power.
 

Sasmf

New member
Location
New York
20 days later and simply amazing that no one has responded to this post. This is some seriously good research. Everyone here is more interested in welds, looks, bigger inlets and reading about butt dyno results.

Cagti - you have a BIG thanks from me for doing this research and posting this.


I am very skeptical these inlets yield a performance improvement. On the contrary, I think there is a very real possibility that they degrade performance and shorten turbocharger lifetime.

TL;DR

90˚ elbow turbo inlets are an engine packaging compromise that introduce pressure differentials into the air flow resulting from the distance between the inner curve and outer curve of the bend. The pressure difference creates air flow separation and turbulence (as I understand it) in the airflow - reducing the turbo’s efficiency. The pressure difference also has adverse effects on the compressor blades and turbocharger bearings - shortening the turbo’s life.

One of the simplest methods of reducing the differential on the curve is to reduce the distance between the inner and outer curves of the bend. That is what the stock inlet shape looks like it’s doing to me. The aftermarket inlets do the exact opposite by creating a much larger distance between the inner and outer curves of the bend - increasing air flow separation.

Wall of text:

I am not a mechanical engineer or fluid dynamics expert but I did some googling, so I’m dangerous.

I have a GTI. My curiosity was piqued when I first stumbled on these aftermarket turbo inlets. It seemed like such a simple ‘no brainer’ mod that the original design puzzled me. Surely, the turbo engineers must have had a reason, right?

Maybe it was a market segmentation ploy. Lower performance GTI gets the air restricting inlet while higher performance models get a bigger inlet. But the Golf R and Audi S3 have the same inlet design. So that’s not it. In itself, the fact that the Golf R shares the same part as the GTI implies the inlet is more than adequate for the GTI with its smaller turbo.

I started searching for academic papers on turbo inlet designs. Interestingly, turbocharger inlet design appears to be a flourishing field of academic research. It has seen a resurgence in the last decade or so because of the move to smaller turbocharged engines to meet emissions standards. There is nothing settled about inlet design and new designs are being researched using computer simulation and lab experimentation. Unfortunately, much of the research is not publicly available due to the restrictive nature of academic publishers, like Elsevier. I was able to find some though.

One of the earliest papers on turbo inlet designs is from 1946. It is about airplane superchargers at higher air velocities but the principles are the same. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930081827.pdf

The paper lays out the problem:



And then proposes a fix:



Another interesting item I was able to find is a patent application: https://www.google.com/patents/US20100221107?cl=en

The patent goes over various inlet designs and explains their limitations. In particular figure 2 shows what looks a lot like the aftermarket turbo inlets in this thread. The application has this to say about it:



In summary, the plain elbow is not efficient at best and can lead to turbo failure at worst.

The application’s invention is drawn in figures 7-9 and appears, to me, to be more similar to (not exactly like) the GTI’s stock inlet design. There is quite a bit of discussion on the merits of this design in sections 0039-0052.

There is a lot of a research out there on the topic and much of it is done using computer simulations (so called CFD or Computational Fluid Dynamics). Given the tiny bit of academic research I was able to read online, I think the GTI’s (and R’s) particular inlet design is not a mistake or oversight. It’s likely the result of extensive computer simulation and experimental verification around air flow optimization. I don’t think the same can be said about these aftermarket designs which appear to be obsolete since 1946.
 

Tone1

Ready to race!
Location
Michigan
It is a great bit of research, and may be true for stock power level cars, but as oblivious pointed out, we're asking that turbo to do a lot more than it was originally intended to do based on its accompanying components. At stock levels maybe the pinched bend is better for laminar flow, but when you start pushing 50% more power that could very easily break down, as some manufacturer's data suggests.
 

wy2sl0

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Ontario
I went APR because it is the only smooth properly tapered inlet. I am putting on an APR intake at the same time and going back to the track. I will post results in a few weeks (those will be the only changes).
 

wy2sl0

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Ontario
Can I ask what makes you say this? Evidence?



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Just look at every design. It has a massive diameter change near the inlet. Because Apr is cast, you can have a continuously reducing diameter which does not cause unnecessary turbulence. Take a look at the cad design and the competition. I am not an apr fan, but their intake and inlet pipe have the most r and d in their designs.
 

Twist1

Autocross Newbie
I have a question for those running the cts tip. With the stock tip, it was a pain in the ass getting that pcv hose off, it also seemed to sort of click in. On the cts one however, it appears to just sit over top of the hole but doesn't lock in. For instance I could pull it off with two fingers probably. Is this normal? Do I need to bend the two little prongs on the side of the pcv hose so it sits below the rim of the tip? There also is a little gap between the pcv and the bottom lip of the cts one. Anyone experience this?
 

Hoon

Autocross Champion
Location
Rhode Island
It's not snapping no matter how hard I press. It just sits on top. What exactly snaps? Do the two prongs go over the bottom lip on the ridge ?

It won't snap in.

Just press it on there and leave it, it won't go anywhere.
 
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