Average Lifetime of a tuned engine/Plug-and-Play Module's

[Metaprose]

All depends on your goals on the car and warranty issues. We sell a ton of the Neuspeed power module because people do not want the TD1 code thrown with an ECU flash. Will it be as powerful, no but some people just want some more power and the ability to yank it when going in for warranty work or resell later

We have one running on our S3 and it def put down some awesome numbers

Dyno run
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8E-Q2_Ri-k

0-60 in 3.9 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06V5wLUFccc

The Neuspeed does boast impressive numbers for a system that only alters outgoing ECU signals. The ability to quick-install quick-uninstall is awesome as well. On top of that, if you don't like it/decide to sell your GTI because you suck, you can always sell the module for some pocket cash. However, because I live in a populated semi-southern state with flat roads and pretty much ideal driving conditions, there are several APR approved vendors around me. If I was stranded with no kick ass VW technicians nearby, I would absolutely be more conservative and go with the Neuspeed module or the upcoming (maybe?) Burger motorsports plug-and-play (I believe they're manufacturing it, I could be wrong).

 

[RedHotVAG]

I do pose one issue though. Even though I have the Neuspeed module, I am aware of 1 deficiency.

If you need to take the module out because you were involved in a front end accident and your vehicle is about to be towed to the VW bodyshop and then the VW dealership to fix mechanicals, and your front end is crumpled and you can't reach the module, depending on who your dealer is, you could get flagged TD1 and there wouldn't be a whole lot you can do about it.

Also the 2nd sensor plug is really difficult to reach. So in a less extreme scenario, the car breaks down on the side of the highway, you are waiting to get towed to VW. You have to get out of the car and stand on the side of the highway, and hope you reach that plug before the tow truck gets there. Matter of fact, I could reach the plug while hunched over the engine bay, but can only reach it with one hand, and could not unlatch the plug without 2 hands. I didn't trust the jack stand in the trunk, and ended up paying a mechanic $20 to throw it on the hoist and remove the cover plate at the bottom, so we can do the 2nd plug. While there were a few members that could do it from the top, many could not. This all seems like a pain in the ass if your car broke down on the side of the highway.

 

[BJJGTI]

It takes about 5min to install/remove the Neuspeed module. Really does not take long at all.

How would the module throw a TD1 as it does not interfere with the ECU programming at all?

It takes that long to reflash.

If there is suspicion that a tune or power adder caused warranty issues the ECU can be shipped to VAG. The tune could be discovered if there are logs from a clamp like this module affecting engine parameters and those affected parameters conform to a known pattern. The TD1 could also be flagged when a VAG warranty auditor visually inspects the car and sees evidence known to conform to such a module install. Perhaps these are remote but risk would still exist.

 

[ModdedEuros]

I do pose one issue though. Even though I have the Neuspeed module, I am aware of 1 deficiency.

If you need to take the module out because you were involved in a front end accident and your vehicle is about to be towed to the VW bodyshop and then the VW dealership to fix mechanicals, and your front end is crumpled and you can't reach the module, depending on who your dealer is, you could get flagged TD1 and there wouldn't be a whole lot you can do about it.

Also the 2nd sensor plug is really difficult to reach. So in a less extreme scenario, the car breaks down on the side of the highway, you are waiting to get towed to VW. You have to get out of the car and stand on the side of the highway, and hope you reach that plug before the tow truck gets there. Matter of fact, I could reach the plug while hunched over the engine bay, but can only reach it with one hand, and could not unlatch the plug without 2 hands. I didn't trust the jack stand in the trunk, and ended up paying a mechanic $20 to throw it on the hoist and remove the cover plate at the bottom, so we can do the 2nd plug. While there were a few members that could do it from the top, many could not. This all seems like a pain in the ass if your car broke down on the side of the highway.

You can reach the bottom plug without jacking up the car from the bottom. Just gotta move the splash guard. Thats how we put it in. So def could be done on the side of the road.

 

[ModdedEuros]

It takes that long to reflash.

If there is suspicion that a tune or power adder caused warranty issues the ECU can be shipped to VAG. The tune could be discovered if there are logs from a clamp like this module affecting engine parameters and those affected parameters conform to a known pattern. The TD1 could also be flagged when a VAG warranty auditor visually inspects the car and sees evidence known to conform to such a module install. Perhaps these are remote but risk would still exist.

When removed there is no trace. You cannot leave it in the car when taking it in for service obviously though.

 

[misaka]

It takes about 5min to install/remove the Neuspeed module. Really does not take long at all.

How would the module throw a TD1 as it does not interfere with the ECU programming at all?

Ok This is a lie! At least for the first time you put it in. I got my module today, and it took me almost 20 minutes to install the first time . I didn't take the bottom plate off, but reached down to do it. I think the instructions could be better in helping you locate the lower plug.

Follow up installs will probably take me 5 minutes or less though.

There's a minor issue installing it on an MQB A3 though. The designated spot for the module can't be used, the battery cover is too thick and does not allow you to use the space between the ECU and the battery for the module.

I'm now waiting for the fuel trims to adapt then push it. Are there any guides on how I should run the wiring up from the boost plug? I had to redo this plug when I ran it wrong initially.

 

[misaka]

It takes that long to reflash.

If there is suspicion that a tune or power adder caused warranty issues the ECU can be shipped to VAG. The tune could be discovered if there are logs from a clamp like this module affecting engine parameters and those affected parameters conform to a known pattern. The TD1 could also be flagged when a VAG warranty auditor visually inspects the car and sees evidence known to conform to such a module install. Perhaps these are remote but risk would still exist.

I might still go eurodyne, but I temporarily picked this module because there isn't a real possibility of a TD1 if you remove it.

You have to understand how this module works, it intercepts the signal coming from the sensors to the ECU and changes the reading being fed to the ECU. The ECU doesn't know anything is different.

ie ECU will say I need 20psi of boost, then the sensor will read 20psi, but the box will take this reading and feed 15psi to the ECU, which will increase boost, and push it more, and the boost will be 25psi, and the box will feed 20 psi to the ECU. So the ECU sees 20psi of boost etc, but it's actually higher.

So if they read the ECU, they won't see abnormal values.

I'm waiting for some of the Audi owners to go to their dealer first after flashing to stock to check TD1 before I jump to that.

 

[BJJGTI]

I might still go eurodyne, but I temporarily picked this module because there isn't a real possibility of a TD1 if you remove it.

You have to understand how this module works, it intercepts the signal coming from the sensors to the ECU and changes the reading being fed to the ECU. The ECU doesn't know anything is different.

ie ECU will say I need 20psi of boost, then the sensor will read 20psi, but the box will take this reading and feed 15psi to the ECU, which will increase boost, and push it more, and the boost will be 25psi, and the box will feed 20 psi to the ECU. So the ECU sees 20psi of boost etc, but it's actually higher.

So if they read the ECU, they won't see abnormal values.

I'm waiting for some of the Audi owners to go to their dealer first after flashing to stock to check TD1 before I jump to that.

I suspect there are logged variables outside those being manipulated that may be evidence of tampering, not to mention physical traces of install. Perhaps some may say that this is so remote that it is insignificant. However, If your claim is significant and VAG wants evidence to disallow warranty work I suspect they will find it. Now, is that realistic? Probably not but is it realistic that VAG will forensically investigate your car even with a tune re flashed to stock? If the answer is no then what is the true advantage of these modules?

 

[ModdedEuros]

Ok This is a lie! At least for the first time you put it in. I got my module today, and it took me almost 20 minutes to install the first time . I didn't take the bottom plate off, but reached down to do it. I think the instructions could be better in helping you locate the lower plug.

Follow up installs will probably take me 5 minutes or less though.

There's a minor issue installing it on an MQB A3 though. The designated spot for the module can't be used, the battery cover is too thick and does not allow you to use the space between the ECU and the battery for the module.

I'm now waiting for the fuel trims to adapt then push it. Are there any guides on how I should run the wiring up from the boost plug? I had to redo this plug when I ran it wrong initially.

haha it should take you 5min if you go under the car but I hear ya. Can take some people longer.

We mounted it on the passenger side of the S3 btw.

In terms of running the cables, really just depends where you want to mount it. Can use some small black zip ties if you want to hold the cables snug against areas.

 

[misaka]

I suspect there are logged variables outside those being manipulated that may be evidence of tampering, not to mention physical traces of install. Perhaps some may say that this is so remote that it is insignificant. However, If your claim is significant and VAG wants evidence to disallow warranty work I suspect they will find it. Now, is that realistic? Probably not but is it realistic that VAG will forensically investigate your car even with a tune re flashed to stock? If the answer is no then what is the true advantage of these modules?

These variables that you talk about really have to do with the fuel etc. The engine will change timing based on the fuel, temps and other things detected. The logical conclusion would be that the sensors are reading off. Since nothing is attached to my car (due to spacing issues I mentioned before), it would be much less likely. Since these cars have had many turbo failures and the like on stock, it's probably not an issue.

Likely the diagnostic process will involve hooking the car up to the system, a check is done of the ECU for non stock programming, the failed part replaced.

With a tune flashed back to stock (currently) There's some debate on whether the system logs the flash dates, and number of flashes done. (ie eurodyne flashes to stock, but currently doesn't reset counters) If they simply compared the time when the car was serviced/flashed (simple check) they could detect it easily. I haven't seen that they do this yet, but I think once it's common knowledge that you can self flash to stock, they may implement the next level of checking, if it's simple. When the ED tunes settle down with the current issues and they have a way to verify that you're currently stock after a flash ( there's still problems flashing every so often) I'd be even more tempted.

This box is a simple quick way to get a bump in power. Other than detailed forensics, ie somehow your car explodes and it's a huge lawsuit, I'm pretty confident they won't look twice.

 

[BJJGTI]

I investigated this issue when I considered getting a tune or a going with a module. Here was my analysis:
(1) a full tune that deals with multiple parameters to produce power is potentially a safer overall solution than a MAP clamp (module)
(2) everything else held constant the tune is likely a superior performer
(3) a tune that allows home flashing is no less inconvenient that removing the module
(4) a full tune when flashed to stock has, to date, shown no known TD1 flags on a regular dealer check to my knowledge (that may not hold true in all cases)
(5) the module is not an absolute assurance of no TDI as anything from logged variables, to the Velcro left in the engine bay, to wear on the connector as you try to pry it off, to your friend’s buddy’s uncle telling the wrong person you are running a module, all could still result in an issue.
Conclusion: That’s up to each person but there is no free lunch.

 

[Johnny Blaze]

It does not take 5 minutes when you do it from under the car, you have to take at least half or more of those under screws out. 20 or so at least.

 

[misaka]

I investigated this issue when I considered getting a tune or a going with a module. Here was my analysis:
(1) a full tune that deals with multiple parameters to produce power is potentially a safer overall solution than a MAP clamp (module)
(2) everything else held constant the tune is likely a superior performer
(3) a tune that allows home flashing is no less inconvenient that removing the module
(4) a full tune when flashed to stock has, to date, shown no known TD1 flags on a regular dealer check to my knowledge (that may not hold true in all cases)
(5) the module is not an absolute assurance of no TDI as anything from logged variables, to the Velcro left in the engine bay, to wear on the connector as you try to pry it off, to your friend’s buddy’s uncle telling the wrong person you are running a module, all could still result in an issue.
Conclusion: That’s up to each person but there is no free lunch.

With point 1, I think it's based on how aggressive the tune is, and how aggressively set the box is. So it would come to which tune you picked.

With point 2, I completely agree. It's part of what keeps tempting me to get a full ED tune.

Point 3, My current concern is that the flashing process can still be glitchy a times. I've seen alot of people who had to flash a few times in a row to get it to work, ie the car won't start, or it didn't actually flash. I know it's more of an inconvenience, but it would freak me out if my car wouldn't start. Also confirming it's stock, and no traces are left isn't a feature yet. (probably coming) On top of this my imagination likes to run wild with different scenarios. If something happens to me at the side of the road and it needs to be towed to dealer (unlikely), I've learned it only takes me 5 minutes to remove the module and put things back to stock. If I need to flash back to stock, luckily ED has a self flash system, but I need to maintain a good internet connection to make sure it happens, (usually no issue), but I would need the flash tool with me and a tablet at all times (I already keep the vagcom and windows tablet under the passenger seat in drawer). But if there was some kind of electrical problem, I might not be able to flash, or an ECU glitch not at fault of the flash either. (again just me over worrying)


Point 4, I think the GTIs have gone to the dealer flashed to stock, without issue. Rumors are that Audi dealers are more stringent usually. I'm waiting to see what happens to a few other owners first before I make the jump. (and see point 3 about confirming a stock flash)

Point 5, If you are smart about it, the chances are probably minimal that you'll have issues with a module. ie not using velcro, not damaging any plugs, and basically taking minor precautions. Again nothing is probably infallible, and the NSA probably knows if you used a module or tuned, They just don't share with VAG.

There are no free lunches, but spend enough money and the lunches become complimentary

I've been on both sides of this scene now, my MK6 GTI was a fully loaded 4 program APR tune. And I just installed the power module on my A3 yesterday.

For me the box is one of 2 things.

1. A temporary measure before I get a full ED tune while the issues mentioned are worked out. It lets me have a little more fun, with in my perception a smaller amount of risk than a full flash while there are questions still.

2. Something I do to keep the tuning itch away. I loved the tune on my MK6, and it was great. But I really never pushed it or used it. I just liked having it. Which does seem like a poor use for the money.

 

[gtigod]

Why not just wait until your warranty runs out or is close to running out? I know I want to do upgrades to my car, but it still has about 12k left on the warranty so I'm not touching anything significant until that's gone. After that...warranty is null anyway so who cares. I can live with factory settings and hardware a while longer or just getting a neuspeed for it. A neuspeed is effectively the same thing as a stage 1 tune, but without messing with the ECU. As far as the ECU is concerned, it's still getting the old signals it is expecting and the neuspeed is intercepting the real signals before the ECU sees them. The end result is the ECU thinks everything is normal, but the neuspeed has spun up the turbo sooner.

I'm seriously considering getting a neuspeed for now. Later once my warranty has run out, that's when I'll get a downpipe, intake, intercooler, clutch and do a stage 2 retune. Stage 1 is just a turbo retune IMHO. Why bother when I know I'm going to want to move to stage 2? $350 for the neuspeed is far less $$ than is $750 for a stage 1 tune and effectively the same thing.

I like what Misaka said...
1. To me it is a temporary solution until I go to state 2
2. Maybe I'll think it's enough that I don't bother with stage 2. Yeah right...not likely. I know myself too well to delude myself with that one.

 

[Diggs24]

03-25-2015, 08:38 AM