GOLFMK8
GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV
FORUM OPTIONS
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum > Technical Topics > GTI Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Tunes


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-11-2015, 08:39 PM   #1
Goingnowherefast
Senior Member
 
Goingnowherefast's Avatar
 
Drives: 16 GTI S, 91 Miata
Location: SE Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,613
The Official Unofficial E85 Ethanol Thread

Hey guys, I thought that I would make a thread to talk about gods nectar I.E E85. For some of you that don't know, APR is developing a flex-fuel system for MK7's that will make ethanol use more mainstream and easy. Burger Motorsport with their JB1 PNP unit is also setup to run an ethanol mix.

For those of you who don't know, E85 is a mix of 85% denatured ethanol fuel and 15% regular gasoline. The "E" in front denotes that is has ethanol content, and the number "85" is how much of it. So E30 would be 30% Ethanol, and 70% Gasoline, just like E50 would be 50% Ethanol and 50% Gasoline.

Here are some of the Pro's and Cons:

Pros:
1. Cheaper by volume
2. Has extreme knock resistance (Less denotation)
3. Has near racegas octane rating (100-104 octane)
4. Excellent cooling properties
5. Allows tuners to bump up the timing a lot meaning much more power in some cases.
6. Reduced carbon-monoxide emissions

Cons:
1. Harder to find in some areas
2. Needs 30% more fuel for the same stoic burn.
3. Not as popular in the VW/Audi world
4. Has corrosive properties

What is "Flex-fuel"?

Have you ever seen those flex-fuel badges on the back of some Chevy's and other cars? Basically what it means is that the car has a ECU and fuel system that will calculate the amount of ethanol in the gas tank and will adjust the tune to get the most out of it. So let's say you can't find E85 anywhere and have to use 100% gas? No problem, just fill up the tank and go. Let's say you find a E85 pump and fill up with 100% E85? No problem, just fill up the tank and go. Let's say you have half a tank of gas and fill the rest up with E85? No problem, just fill up the tank and go. That's the beauty of it, the ECU does all the work. This is why APR is going this route because it's fool-proof and easy.

Will it hurt my car?

Generally no. All cars sold in the US past 2004 are setup to run at least 10% of ethanol content that is already in the current pump gas today. This means that the cars fueling systems are up to the task of running low ethanol contents. However, in order to run high contents and to get the most out of ethanol you may need a tune specifically for it or fueling components that can handle the higher 30% of fuel needed.

Here's a video of me asking DAP why E85 use isn't popular yet in the VW/Audi world.


The purpose of this thread is to start talking about E85 and bring it into the mainstream like it is with every other car scene. If you have any questions or something to add post below. Let's get talking about how to make 20+HP with nothing but a change in fuel.
__________________
2016 GTI S 6MT//2014 Fiesta ST 6MT//1991 Miata track car 5MT

New to Golf MK7? We will show you the light. Start here: http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18297

Last edited by Goingnowherefast; 11-13-2015 at 04:09 AM.
Goingnowherefast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2015, 08:40 PM   #2
Goingnowherefast
Senior Member
 
Goingnowherefast's Avatar
 
Drives: 16 GTI S, 91 Miata
Location: SE Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,613
How do I log a blend of gas and E85?

These cars have very advanced ECU's. They will adapt to many different engine parameters that have allowed people to run some significant blends without changing their tune. In order to figure out if it is safe and running well here's the things that you need to log. Remember, always run logs in a safe place and start your pull down low I.E. 2000 rpm.

Here's what you need to log:
Item # Vag-Com
Block # Description

1 001-1 Engine Speed
2 014-3 Misfire Sum
3 031-1 Lambda, Current Value
4 054-3 Accelerator Pedal Position
5 054-4 Throttle Plate Angle
6 101-3 Injection Timing (Median)
7* 103-1*Current Fuel Pressure*
8 114-4 N75 Duty Cycle
9 115-3 Boost Pressure (Specified)
10 115-4 Boost Pressure (Actual)
11 230-1 Rail Pressure - Specified
12 230-2 Rail Pressure - Actual
Short term adaptation of mixture formation bank 1

Source & Credit: http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php
More on this later as I get more information from HYDE16.

:thumbsup:
__________________
2016 GTI S 6MT//2014 Fiesta ST 6MT//1991 Miata track car 5MT

New to Golf MK7? We will show you the light. Start here: http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18297

Last edited by Goingnowherefast; 02-25-2016 at 09:17 PM.
Goingnowherefast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2015, 09:00 PM   #3
Bawlti
Senior Member
 
Drives: 2015 GTI PP DSG
Location: Montreal, Canada
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 207
Very informative thread and first post. Will follow discussions.
__________________
2015 GTI PP DSG | Unitronic ECU & DSG stage 2
Bawlti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2015, 09:41 PM   #4
drepai
Junior Member
 
Drives: 600whp MK6, '96 Miata
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 7
My mk6 tsi picked up 100whp by switching from 91 octane to an e47 blend, we added 5 psi and a few degrees of timing before we ran out of fuel. At 35 psi it pulls ZERO timing even after multiple hot runs. The motor is much happier than it was on 91. Had to use a fifth injector to get enough headroom to run it, it's pretty simple to setup though. Who's gonna do it on a mk7 first?
drepai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2015, 09:51 PM   #5
vdubguy29
Member
 
Drives: 2015 PURE WHITE VW GTI S
Location: Pearland, Tx
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 98
this definitely sparked my interest as well, with apr e85 tune switchable with th 93 octane tune if you cant find any e85? Luckily here in Houston Texas krogars a vast and plentiful...and so is the fountains that spew GODS NECTAR
vdubguy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 12:23 AM   #6
Andrewha
Junior Member
 
Drives: 2015 Gti S
Location: Santa Ana
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by drepai View Post
My mk6 tsi picked up 100whp by switching from 91 octane to an e47 blend, we added 5 psi and a few degrees of timing before we ran out of fuel. At 35 psi it pulls ZERO timing even after multiple hot runs. The motor is much happier than it was on 91. Had to use a fifth injector to get enough headroom to run it, it's pretty simple to setup though. Who's gonna do it on a mk7 first?

i was there that day when they were tuning your mk6 at autuning, that shit was badass, when theres eurodyne maestro im definitely gonna get my car tuned at autuning to run e85 and make some good power
Andrewha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 01:13 AM   #7
LeGti
Senior Member
 
Drives: 2015 PP Gti
Location: France
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 637
Thanks for the thread, IN to learn more about using E85 in the Gen3 EA888!!

The presentator mentioned in the video that E85 degrades faster. Wasn't aware of this...


Using VCDS to log, what would you look for in testing increasing percentages of E85? Timing? Injector duty %?
__________________
Chassis: DCC / DG springs / UBQ, XBQ / SuperPro SupAloy A-arms, rear bushes, sway bars, engine & trans mounts. Transmish': Torque Solutions cable ends & bracket bushes / APR ss / delay delete & braided clutch line & spring delete / WotBox. Engine: / JB1 / Fluidamper / R600 full / Forge DV / Wagner IC / BCS turbo-back.
LeGti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 04:27 AM   #8
AZGTI
Senior Member
 
Drives: 2016 GTI
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 309
Thank you for this. Any speculation as to why the E85 gains on the APR IS38 tune are somewhat minimal compared to other E85 tunes on different platforms? I understand that may be an apples/oranges thing, but I am used to seeing 50+ wheel hp gains on e85..
AZGTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 03:46 PM   #9
Goingnowherefast
Senior Member
 
Goingnowherefast's Avatar
 
Drives: 16 GTI S, 91 Miata
Location: SE Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,613
If drepai picking up OVER 100WHP doesn't get you guys excited for E85, I don't know what will haha. Thanks for sharing mate. We'll have to see how well the fueling is on these new motors, maybe they won't require an aux injector for ~500whp stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubguy29 View Post
this definitely sparked my interest as well, with apr e85 tune switchable with th 93 octane tune if you cant find any e85? Luckily here in Houston Texas krogars a vast and plentiful...and so is the fountains that spew GODS NECTAR
Well the way I understand it from APR is they will be creating different maps for each fuel. So for instance, if you are on the 93 octane file then it will load the 93 octane profile and then depending on the Ethanol content the map will change and interpolate the difference. I.E. you won't ever have to touch or switch ANYTHING, the ECU will do it on it's own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeGti View Post
Thanks for the thread, IN to learn more about using E85 in the Gen3 EA888!!
The presentator mentioned in the video that E85 degrades faster. Wasn't aware of this...
Using VCDS to log, what would you look for in testing increasing percentages of E85? Timing? Injector duty %?
No problem, and yes Ethanol does degrade faster but honestly unless your car is sitting for months straight it won't matter. I updated the second post with some information about logging and I am talking to HYDE16 over on the MK6 forums. He is a literal guru when it comes to logging and ethanol so I will update the post as I learn more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZGTI View Post
Thank you for this. Any speculation as to why the E85 gains on the APR IS38 tune are somewhat minimal compared to other E85 tunes on different platforms? I understand that may be an apples/oranges thing, but I am used to seeing 50+ wheel hp gains on e85..
Per APR they said they can reach MBT (Maximum Brake Torque timing) on 93 octane. Meaning they can reach peak timing that provides maximum torque on a 93 octane profile. This is circumstantial but that's one of the reasons why we aren't seeing huge 50+ whp gains. That being said there is gains all under the curve as well as it keeping the power stronger for longer so there is still great benefits to be had, even though the peak numbers aren't too much different.
__________________
2016 GTI S 6MT//2014 Fiesta ST 6MT//1991 Miata track car 5MT

New to Golf MK7? We will show you the light. Start here: http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18297

Last edited by Goingnowherefast; 11-12-2015 at 03:55 PM.
Goingnowherefast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 03:59 PM   #10
HYDE16
Member
 

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
I updated the second post with some information about logging and I am talking to HYDE16 over on the MK6 forums. He is a literal guru when it comes to logging and ethanol so I will update the post as I learn more.
Thank you for the compliment and for bringing me into this thread. I can help those work with their cars and logging tools to see which ethanol blend may be safe for their tune.
HYDE16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 04:06 PM   #11
Mojo_BR
Member
 
Drives: GTI Mk7
Location: Brazil
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 82
In Brazil most cars as already flexfuel, I believe only imports nowadays are not. Golf will be made here (anytime now, production may already have began) and a flex 1.4T is in the cards.

Regular gas sold anywhere is at least 25% ethanol, an amount that may be changed up or down anytime as per producers convenience (just as hard to believe to us Brazilians as to anyone else) with claimed zero-impact in cars, even not flex ones. Gas is so crappy over here it might be true.

Anyway the good part : we get 100% ethanol at any station and itīs less prone to being adultered, plus is cheaper than gas. I currently have a JB1 in and am waiting very anxiously for ethanol support. I tend to believe that even without changing boost safety car will make more power just by dialing it in the current ethanol % as it will be user adjustable.
Mojo_BR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 07:18 PM   #12
vegatune
Junior Member
 
Drives: golf r
Location: jax
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZGTI View Post
Thank you for this. Any speculation as to why the E85 gains on the APR IS38 tune are somewhat minimal compared to other E85 tunes on different platforms? I understand that may be an apples/oranges thing, but I am used to seeing 50+ wheel hp gains on e85..
It depends on what they did with the tune and what auto adjust with tune. I'm just assuming because I have never looked into a vw ecu hex file and what definition they have access to or what coding they have added on top of it. It's obvious that they have access to a stock ethanol sensor or added coding to the ecu to add an ethanol sensor. They are able to tune the Afr portion of that based on ethanol content percentage for sure. What I'm not sure if they have the boost and timing control tied into like an aem ems. With the aem ems you have a pump gas tune with timing,Afr,boost based on that gas. Also you have an e85 tune. Let's say you run 23 psi,15 deg on pump and 30 psi, 18 deg on e 85 the ecu would adjust Psi,Afr,timing between those 2 points base on ethanol percentage. I think they are just adjusting Afr but not boost or timing based on ethanol percentage. That's the only reason they only gained 20HP. I'm just assuming though. Most cars that I have tuned do gain about 40HP on stock turbos over 100HP on 35r and up.
vegatune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 07:39 PM   #13
gn4rwhals
Senior Member
 
Drives: 2017 Golf Sportwagen TSI 4Motion, Bagged 2017 WRX
Location: Detroit, MI
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,127
Regarding the corrosive properties of E85, have we had confirmation that the seals/lines in the MK7 can handle full E85 load or only a mix?

Also usually you have to upgrade fuel injectors for E85 due to the burn rate, I have not seen anything like this yet (unless that is what APR is launching).
__________________
2017 WRX - AirLift Performance
2017 Golf Sportwagen 4Motion
Instagram: gn4rwhals
gn4rwhals is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 07:51 PM   #14
awdvwman
Member
 
awdvwman's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 GTI
Location: Lewisville, TX
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 84
I'm currently running Unitronic's stg 1.5 with 93 octane here in Texas. If I run an e30 mix, will I see any gains?
awdvwman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 09:29 PM   #15
gn4rwhals
Senior Member
 
Drives: 2017 Golf Sportwagen TSI 4Motion, Bagged 2017 WRX
Location: Detroit, MI
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by awdvwman View Post
I'm currently running Unitronic's stg 1.5 with 93 octane here in Texas. If I run an e30 mix, will I see any gains?
Unless tuned for it I doubt it, however the car may run cleaner timing and could possibly create more power.
__________________
2017 WRX - AirLift Performance
2017 Golf Sportwagen 4Motion
Instagram: gn4rwhals
gn4rwhals is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2015, 10:44 PM   #16
Helltime
Member
 
Drives: mk7 GTI
Location: Midwest, USA
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 96
I am curious to see what kind of gains can be had with E85 on this platform. I know the 135i (n54) i got rid of LOVED E85, that thing went from being quick with jb4 and intercooler to straight up monster with just E35...it was insane.
__________________
2015 GTI SE 2DR 6spd manual LP -Sold
06 MCS 6spd
09 Pontiac G8 GT
2015 Vulcan S
Helltime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2015, 01:47 AM   #17
gn4rwhals
Senior Member
 
Drives: 2017 Golf Sportwagen TSI 4Motion, Bagged 2017 WRX
Location: Detroit, MI
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 3,127
I'm interested to see what JB tuning does with the GTI in general...... The JB1 is insane for just a PNP.

George already had me running an E85 mix to cool down my timing, if it can modify fuel to support more E85 mixes its gonna be awesome.
__________________
2017 WRX - AirLift Performance
2017 Golf Sportwagen 4Motion
Instagram: gn4rwhals
gn4rwhals is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.