GOLFMK8
GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV
FORUM OPTIONS
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum > Technical Topics > Tracking / Autocrossing / Driving Techniques


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-12-2018, 06:08 PM   #1
xtina
Junior Member
 
Drives: Fit. golf 7.5
Location: Toronto
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 16
Suspension set ups for Autox

I just bought a 18 1.8 and will be doing autox with it. Not seeing many people with suspension mods.
I want a compromise of lowered/stiff and every day driveability. Was thinking a Bilstein coilover set up. Is there djustable camber from the factory or will I need camber bolts etc?
xtina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2018, 06:27 PM   #2
RacingManiac
Senior Member
 
RacingManiac's Avatar
 
Drives: Night Blue Metallic PP GTI 2dr 6MT
Location: Michigan, USA
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 843
Are you running with any specific organization and do you know what class are you aiming to be competing in? If you are looking to be competitive thats where you need to start. If you just want to do it for fun it isn't as important.

Factory strut has very little camber adjustment. You can go with after market control arms or camber plate to add more front camber. Rear camber is adjustable on these cars.
RacingManiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 04:19 PM   #3
odessa.filez
Senior Member
 
odessa.filez's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 GSW 1.8T S
Location: Tampa, FL metro
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtina View Post
I just bought a 18 1.8 and will be doing autox with it. Not seeing many people with suspension mods.
I want a compromise of lowered/stiff and every day driveability. Was thinking a Bilstein coilover set up. Is there djustable camber from the factory or will I need camber bolts etc?
I autocross a GSW 1.8t automatic. I have 30 plus events, mostly in this car. I compete in a tire width restricted modified class at my club. The class you choose to compete in may dictate your mods. I would study classing at your local club. I would drive the car bone stock, nannies disabled for a while before throwing money at it, especially if you haven't competed in autocross yet.

From an SCCA stock classing perspective, the 1.8t is behind the eight ball as there are more powerful cars, including the GTI, in its class.

I have similar objectives for daily driveability though I'm not a fan of lowering on this platform.

I have a thematic approach (again, permitted in my modified class).

Keep the front soft and concentrate on improving alignment (negative camber).

Firm up the rear to help the car rotate.

For front alignment, I have adjustable camber plates. They are a compromise for DD but if you keep the front soft and stick with 15" or 16" wheels, they are quite tolerable and add a lot of steering feel. There are other solutions to improve camber, but with less change and no adjustability. Note that all of this is verboten in SCCA stock.

For the rear, I have the gti 22mm swaybar, koni shocks, and bump springs to tune firmness. The rear can be tuned considerably simply by changing the amount of shaft travel before engaging the bump springs (as well as tone things down for the street).

The sway and the shocks are SCCA stock legal, the bump springs are not.

Wheels and tires are currently 195 55r15 for events and 195 65r15 for street.

Overall, daily driveability is firmer than stock but not bad at all. I would bet it's more pleasant than a GTI on 18s and summer tires, but haven't done the comparison.

I took this approach after about a dozen events in this car and getting feedback and instruction, and after reading Dennis Grant's "Autocross to Win" website. I am by no means a great driver but I'm steadily improving.

Finally, a while back before I bought this car, an experienced track person told me (for track) the hierarchy for getting faster is:

Driver -> Tires -> Alignment -> Shocks -> Springs -> Sways.

I think a lot of it rings true for autocross, though classing may dictate otherwise.
__________________
Former Big Money Wasted snob
Vorshlag camber plates - PP rear sway - Koni Yellows - ad-hoc front coilover conversion - bump springs, spring rubbers and other do-dads - 205/50/r15 re-71r
ESC OFF
odessa.filez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 05:03 PM   #4
RacingManiac
Senior Member
 
RacingManiac's Avatar
 
Drives: Night Blue Metallic PP GTI 2dr 6MT
Location: Michigan, USA
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 843
In SCCA "Street" classing(where GTI is most competitive in) Sway bar is probably the first thing you tackle after you are on the correct tires. And generally it will have the most effect. I would put dampers last but if you change spring rates you'd want to do dampers.
RacingManiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 07:26 PM   #5
00Zero
Junior Member
 
Drives: 2016 Golf Sportwagen
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
Odessa, interesting setup. i never thought about bump spring on the strut to increase rear rate. Would you provide any details on the spring rate or supplier of the parts?

I have been toying with shorter front bump stops (CSS p/n) on my stock setup when i eventually add camber plates (fixed or adj, tbd) to reduce the front roll rate and increase travel. Any thoughts?

-Jonathan
00Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 10:08 PM   #6
RacingManiac
Senior Member
 
RacingManiac's Avatar
 
Drives: Night Blue Metallic PP GTI 2dr 6MT
Location: Michigan, USA
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zero View Post
I have been toying with shorter front bump stops (CSS p/n) on my stock setup when i eventually add camber plates (fixed or adj, tbd) to reduce the front roll rate and increase travel. Any thoughts?

I don't understand this sentence. Shorter bumpstop will increase travel but it won't reduce rate.
RacingManiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 10:15 PM   #7
odessa.filez
Senior Member
 
odessa.filez's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 GSW 1.8T S
Location: Tampa, FL metro
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zero View Post
Odessa, interesting setup. i never thought about bump spring on the strut to increase rear rate. Would you provide any details on the spring rate or supplier of the parts?

I have been toying with shorter front bump stops (CSS p/n) on my stock setup when i eventually add camber plates (fixed or adj, tbd) to reduce the front roll rate and increase travel. Any thoughts?

-Jonathan
these are 300lb springs from slade shock technology. they sell softer and firmer springs. hyperco, eibach and others sell them, though most are at much higher rates.

saw these and thought they'd be a fun experiment. koni yellows are currently set to 1/2 turn from full soft. I started out with minimal clearance, packed almost to zero. car was very lively and it could get away from less-experienced me rather suddenly. spun the car on three successive events. car rotated very easily, just a handful if I went into a slalom too hot. now running with about 5/8 clearance and it seems better overall and I can run them this way on the street without worry.

you could do something similar with fully packed and firm bump stop material, which I tried, or spring rubbers, which I haven't tried.

regarding front bumps, I found out accidentally (thanks to a buddy autoxer) that my vorshlag plates took away about an inch of strut travel. no big deal really but I'm almost riding on my bump stops now. I plan to cut them to add at least a 1/2 inch travel. this is just one reason why I'm not inclined to lower.

different plates have different tradeoffs. I believe the gc plates and the 034s do not have the strut travel issue, at least in certain configs.

overall I want my front to have plenty of camber and allow it to use it with softer springs and adequate travel. also think it's easier to add spring rate back (by packing bumps, spring rubbers etc) than take it away.

you could cut your bumps or get shorter ones. if you don't like the results then you can pack them back to where they were.

if you go with plates, research carefully. your springs and your strut sway link connection can limit adjustment. my stock springs prevent full adjustment and I'm planning a spring change (at roughly stock rate) to provide clearance for full adjustment.
__________________
Former Big Money Wasted snob
Vorshlag camber plates - PP rear sway - Koni Yellows - ad-hoc front coilover conversion - bump springs, spring rubbers and other do-dads - 205/50/r15 re-71r
ESC OFF

Last edited by odessa.filez; 02-14-2018 at 10:44 PM.
odessa.filez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2018, 04:20 PM   #8
00Zero
Junior Member
 
Drives: 2016 Golf Sportwagen
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
I don't understand this sentence. Shorter bumpstop will increase travel but it won't reduce rate.
By increasing the front bump travel you engage the progressive rate bump stop later. That means more roll before the bump stops start adding to the spring rate, this would reduce the resistance to front roll, decreasing front roll rate.

I think my logic is correct but my terminology may be off. Correct me if I am wrong

-Jonathan
00Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2018, 04:30 PM   #9
00Zero
Junior Member
 
Drives: 2016 Golf Sportwagen
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by odessa.filez View Post
these are 300lb springs from slade shock technology. they sell softer and firmer springs. hyperco, eibach and others sell them, though most are at much higher rates.

saw these and thought they'd be a fun experiment. koni yellows are currently set to 1/2 turn from full soft. I started out with minimal clearance, packed almost to zero. car was very lively and it could get away from less-experienced me rather suddenly. spun the car on three successive events. car rotated very easily, just a handful if I went into a slalom too hot. now running with about 5/8 clearance and it seems better overall and I can run them this way on the street without worry.

you could do something similar with fully packed and firm bump stop material, which I tried, or spring rubbers, which I haven't tried.

regarding front bumps, I found out accidentally (thanks to a buddy autoxer) that my vorshlag plates took away about an inch of strut travel. no big deal really but I'm almost riding on my bump stops now. I plan to cut them to add at least a 1/2 inch travel. this is just one reason why I'm not inclined to lower.

different plates have different tradeoffs. I believe the gc plates and the 034s do not have the strut travel issue, at least in certain configs.

overall I want my front to have plenty of camber and allow it to use it with softer springs and adequate travel. also think it's easier to add spring rate back (by packing bumps, spring rubbers etc) than take it away.

you could cut your bumps or get shorter ones. if you don't like the results then you can pack them back to where they were.

if you go with plates, research carefully. your springs and your strut sway link connection can limit adjustment. my stock springs prevent full adjustment and I'm planning a spring change (at roughly stock rate) to provide clearance for full adjustment.
Thanks for the info. good to know about the vorshlag plates, I'm currently leaning towards 034 if the sportwagen can supprot the added -1.4degrees.

Good luck with the front spring change and let us know how it goes. If you can get a rear coil-over adjuster some 5-6k swift spring would go pretty good back there too, if my math isn't too far off

-Jonathan
00Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2018, 07:06 PM   #10
RacingManiac
Senior Member
 
RacingManiac's Avatar
 
Drives: Night Blue Metallic PP GTI 2dr 6MT
Location: Michigan, USA
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zero View Post
By increasing the front bump travel you engage the progressive rate bump stop later. That means more roll before the bump stops start adding to the spring rate, this would reduce the resistance to front roll, decreasing front roll rate.

I think my logic is correct but my terminology may be off. Correct me if I am wrong

-Jonathan
Thats correct assuming you are on the bump stop a lot. At the same time too what is the logic for wanting less front roll rate.
RacingManiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2018, 07:55 PM   #11
00Zero
Junior Member
 
Drives: 2016 Golf Sportwagen
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
Thats correct assuming you are on the bump stop a lot. At the same time too what is the logic for wanting less front roll rate.
Lower front roll rate should shift the roll stiffness to the rear, reducing understeer a small amount, but i would consider it a bonus in addition to more bump travel.


-Jonathan
00Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2018, 08:13 PM   #12
RacingManiac
Senior Member
 
RacingManiac's Avatar
 
Drives: Night Blue Metallic PP GTI 2dr 6MT
Location: Michigan, USA
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 843
For these cars where camber control is a at a premium and we don't have a whole lot of roll stiffness to start with, unless you have some specific limit to add rear roll stiffness I don't see the need to reduce roll resistance on one end to shift balance.
RacingManiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2018, 10:10 PM   #13
00Zero
Junior Member
 
Drives: 2016 Golf Sportwagen
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
I understand your point, a rear sway bar or stiffer rear springs will be more effective. (I plan on a Clubsport S or 22mm rear come spring)

I figure, if I'm in there installing a camber plate and can add 15mm of bump travel and reduce understeer a littler bit more with out increasing stiffness, why not?

I assume it can't be too out of line if a softer front bumpstop was specked on the Clubsport S for the same reasons.

https://www.pistonheads.com/features...aid-bare/33369


-Jonathan
00Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 03:37 PM   #14
RacingManiac
Senior Member
 
RacingManiac's Avatar
 
Drives: Night Blue Metallic PP GTI 2dr 6MT
Location: Michigan, USA
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 843
Clubsport also have stiffer springs and damper tuning. And is lowered. It would make sense to allow for more bump travel for that car to absorbed the bumps as it will have less travel to start with.
RacingManiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 07:45 PM   #15
n2rcn4fun1
Junior Member
 
Drives: 2016 GTI
Location: VA
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 16
springs

Jen I thought dampers can be changed but must use stock springs in the street classes
n2rcn4fun1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 09:40 PM   #16
xtina
Junior Member
 
Drives: Fit. golf 7.5
Location: Toronto
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 16
The org I run with isn't super competitive. Tire sizes don't matter. Suspension, springs or sway bar will bump you up from the stock class so it's best just to do all of them.
Will the golfR rear sway bar fit?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
xtina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 10:42 PM   #17
RacingManiac
Senior Member
 
RacingManiac's Avatar
 
Drives: Night Blue Metallic PP GTI 2dr 6MT
Location: Michigan, USA
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by n2rcn4fun1 View Post
Jen I thought dampers can be changed but must use stock springs in the street classes
Yes in Street class you cannot touch springs. You also can't touch bump rubber if you end up making it longer.
RacingManiac is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.