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Old 06-05-2018, 12:49 PM   #69
Slick99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman View Post
In which trim?



They list the DSG 4Motion as 3325lbs.
Those are weight of 2018, the link i shared is 2017 GSW "S" 4motion.

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Old 06-05-2018, 03:09 PM   #70
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Be happy you donít have an Alltrack. Itís about 3775 with me in it.


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Old 06-05-2018, 03:30 PM   #71
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Be happy you donít have an Alltrack. Itís about 3775 with me in it.


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lol.....you have all that pretty glass over your head though.
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Old 06-05-2018, 03:40 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Slick99 View Post
https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswa...rtwagen/387798

C&D shows curb weight of GSW 3358lbs manual and 3415lbs dsg.
http://www.vw.com/models/golf-sportw...ype/automatic/


2017 GSW 4motion w. DSG = 3246 as per VW website, not a magazine that posts inaccurate numbers all the time. You can go in and change trims and options and watch the weights change. And it's pretty damn accurate to what people are posting for real world numbers. I'm pretty sure the VW numbers are with empty fuel tanks, but they are accurate to each other and that is the important part.
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Old 06-05-2018, 05:01 PM   #73
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Here you go guys. I stopped by the local public scale on the way to work this morning so we could stop armchair weighing. Lol. I wanted to get an official weight anyways.

This was with a 1/3 tank of gas and about 10lbs of junk in the car(kidís booster seat and toys and whatnot)



Trap speed is power and weight. Itís that simple.
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Old 06-05-2018, 05:23 PM   #74
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Ugh. I need that weight. Next time.


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Old 06-06-2018, 11:43 AM   #75
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I _never_ said they have the same drivetrain loss. What I said is a car with a modern and technologically advanced Haldex AWD system like the Golf R will only have 1-2% more drivetrain loss than a FWD Golf. You were trying to say it was an extra 15% lol. It's nowhere even close to that.

Unless you're running shorter diameter front tires than stock, the speeds and RPMs you've listed below do not add up. Not surprising since you seem to BS everything. For example, at the end of the 2-3 shift, you'll be at closer to 4200 RPMs than the 4500 you listed. Now for reference let's take a look at the APR dyno sheet for an IS38 on 1.8T. This won't be exactly the same as your car since you're running more boost and other mods but the shape of the curve will be very similar.



Now check out how much power you're making at 4200 RPMs after the 2-3 shift. Compare how much power it makes at 4200 RPMs vs say 5200, which is about where the DSG would have been assuming the same shift point and tire size. It's a 50+ WHP difference which is enormous. As you can see, you're at a much lower RPM and making a lot less power too. You now have to crawl back into the meat of the powerband. This is one reason why the DSG will beat you. The other is the DSG has lightning quick shifts. These are the two big reasons why you're not going to trap low to mid 120's, let alone match Chuck's 119. Like I said, you're probably around 117.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironshade View Post
I lost intrest in arugung with armchair racer when he said fwd has same drive train loss as awd car lol. When gti’s on is38 are doing 5-6mph traps higher than Rs on same setup

On side note my s model weighed 3110 on scales with towhitch/stock exhaust and spare/tools and full tank of gas. With some weight removal low 2900lbs sound reasonable? I gotta gut it and and turn it loose on apr100 flash for the stack. With 17’ timing request vs my current 12 to see how she does.

Weight photo - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1D0...qXlAj9MkyjLGz1

As far as boost goes me and chuck are running idential boost currenty. But anyway i’ll be at track soon. Currently scoping on a wheel/tire setup.

The 60-100mph video i posted was loading 3rd. Not reving 2nd out to ~73mph (powerband) then getting back in the (powerband) till end of 3rd at 119mph. But anyway
your s6 definitely moves. But i’m not bench racing. I’m basing my performance off cars i’ve raced that have gone to the track. I don’t think i’m streaching it saying its a low120mph car.

5mt 2-3 shift end up at ~4500 and 3-4shift ends up at ~4800 how is that out of the power?

Fyi we all owe chuck a cookie for pushing platform and getting more vendors involved
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Old 06-06-2018, 11:53 AM   #76
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AWD on the MQB platform doesn't add quite that much weight. If you look at all the official weights VW has listed for the various FWD and AWD Golf models, one can reasonably deduce that AWD adds somewhere around 200lbs. Now with that said, a Golf R can weigh more than 200lbs than a base GTI for reasons such as:

More standard equipment and amenities than a base GTI
GTI can be 2 doors whereas the R can't (this is a pretty big weight difference)
Golf R has bigger and heavier wheels and brakes than the base GTI

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErBall View Post
That's assuming the AWD system is always on, which it isn't. While it absolutely will suffer more drivetrain loss, when you look at load vs. time the amount of additional loss is appreciably smaller than I think you're accounting for. This is the whole reason haldex systems exist, and are becoming as prevalent as they are. Otherwise it's just spinning the driveshaft, which again is more drivetrain loss, but not much.



Weight. AWD setupts add about 3-400lbs, when you start looking at HP/Weight it makes sense.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:19 PM   #77
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No, the weights I listed are from the official VW specifications PDFs, not Google. Here are the links:

https://newspress-vwusamedia.s3.amaz...b40c8bd4a5.pdf

https://newspress-vwusamedia.s3.amaz...ifications.pdf

As you can see, using the _official_ weights for the two cars, the DSG R is 18lbs lighter than the DSG SW 4Motion... 3340 vs 3358. I have no idea where you're coming up with 3246 for a 2017 Sportwageb 4Motion DSG but that's not even close to its official weight as per VW. Again, look at the official specs I posted above.

With all due respect, those are pretty shitty numbers you ran given everything you had done, such as the meth, stacked JB4, slicks, gutted interior etc. That A3 trapped 120 or 2 MPH more than you despite pump gas, no meth and a full interior.

I'm starting to think that maybe the 1.8T can make very close to the same power as the LOW compression 2.0T (R/TTS/S3) with all else equal since your car was gutted just like Chuck's so the overall race weight of the two cars was probably pretty close (he did drop his catback but that will offset partially with the R being lighter from the factory). I think the big advantage that both the 1.8T and standard 2.0T has (GTI/A3/TT), at least for the purpose of going fast on the IS38, is it has a considerably higher compression ratio than the R.

The higher compression ratio is another reason why GTIs are trapping higher and putting down more power than Rs with all else equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OVWRacr View Post
More incorrect armchair racing. You used 2015 and 2017 so you could use google numbers. Go to vw.com and compare the 2017s side by side. Turns out I misremembered the numbers. The GSW is actually 94lbs lighter...my bad. 2017 Golf R=3340, 2017 GSW 4motion=3246. Both those weights are with DSG.

And I can assure you that the Rs on the list are most definitely pushing the limit of the is38. You see, the R at the top of that is38 list was mine. The day I ran that number the car was running 100oct in the tank plus watermeth with jb4 stacked over a UM flash and full bolt ons. Seeing 30psi in 4th with 17 degrees of timing. Seats pulled out, open downpipe with an electric cutout and Hoosier drag radials. Pretty much identical setup to what Chuck was running. The only real difference is that he had his exhaust pulled, saving around 50lbs and he weighs 190 to my 285. That, combined with the lighter weight of the GSW adds up to around 250lbs lighter. And his air was better. 0DA to my 1000DA. Other than that, our setups are almost identical. In fact, I would say the biggest common factor in our setups is that George had a hand in both our cars helping us wring every last bit out of the is38. You know, the guy you're arguing with about piston failures.

If we've established that the 1.8 makes less power than the 2.0, and that the Rs at the top of the list are pushing just as hard as Chuck is, then the difference is weight. That's all that's left. Which is the same reason that the IS38 GTIs are trapping in the 120s. They are significantly lighter than the R. And that's how a 1.8 making less power than the 2.0 is trapping the same. Less weight.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:24 PM   #78
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That's probably the difference in the compression ratios right there. The GTI will always make more power than the R due to the higher compression ratio provided it's not octane limited (which with an IS38 it won't be).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinDad View Post
I’ve seen lots of dynos from both IS38 gti and stage 2 golf R. Seems like the majority of the golf R are around 335whp and the gti are usually 350+. I’ve seen as higher in the gti and also the R, but that seems to be the norm. The torque difference is also usually a greater spread as well going in favor to the gti
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:33 PM   #79
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Just a FYI, all of VW's published weights are with a full tank of fuel, not empty. So it makes sense that if the weight with a full tank of fuel is 3358 that yours would weigh 3280 with 1/3 a tank. Of course there will be other variables, such as vehicle options, scale differences etc. Was your spare in the car at the time you weighed it?

While weighing your car is cool, it still doesn't change the fact that you're dead wrong about the R DSG being heavier than the GSW 4Motion DSG. If you would've weighed an R with 1/3 tank of fuel and everything else the same as your wagon (kids toys etc), it would've weighed right around 18lbs less than your car since that is the weight difference between the two with everything else being equal.

And trap speed is not only power and weight nor is it that simple. There are many other variables at play, such as aerodynamics, traction, density altitude, gearing (including tire size), shift points and speed of shifts, just to name a few. For example, when C&D has tested certain European cars, one with a DSG trans and one with a manual, the DSG quite frequently will have not just a better ET but a higher trap. Both cars will have the same power and similar weights (if anything the DSG will weigh more) but the DSG will trap a couple MPH higher. So your statement was incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OVWRacr View Post
Here you go guys. I stopped by the local public scale on the way to work this morning so we could stop armchair weighing. Lol. I wanted to get an official weight anyways.

This was with a 1/3 tank of gas and about 10lbs of junk in the car(kid’s booster seat and toys and whatnot)



Trap speed is power and weight. It’s that simple.

Last edited by Armchair Racer; 06-06-2018 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 01:36 PM   #80
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Heres the 3-4 shift look at mph and rev. (Blades car)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=Y3EJbwOa9Pg
Heres the 2-3 shift of my car
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1K1...0dHddeTHQ3WfHp


But to cut down the drama, what ever my car traps is cool. I only roll race cuz of 150miles daily commute to school and its taken down some heavy hitters form 60rolls. . So whatever the case may be the 5mt has been doing awesome for me. And i still think its a decent trans for is38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armchair Racer View Post
I _never_ said they have the same drivetrain loss. What I said is a car with a modern and technologically advanced Haldex AWD system like the Golf R will only have 1-2% more drivetrain loss than a FWD Golf. You were trying to say it was an extra 15% lol. It's nowhere even close to that.

Unless you're running shorter diameter front tires than stock, the speeds and RPMs you've listed below do not add up. Not surprising since you seem to BS everything. For example, at the end of the 2-3 shift, you'll be at closer to 4200 RPMs than the 4500 you listed. Now for reference let's take a look at the APR dyno sheet for an IS38 on 1.8T. This won't be exactly the same as your car since you're running more boost and other mods but the shape of the curve will be very similar.



Now check out how much power you're making at 4200 RPMs after the 2-3 shift. Compare how much power it makes at 4200 RPMs vs say 5200, which is about where the DSG would have been assuming the same shift point and tire size. It's a 50+ WHP difference which is enormous. As you can see, you're at a much lower RPM and making a lot less power too. You now have to crawl back into the meat of the powerband. This is one reason why the DSG will beat you. The other is the DSG has lightning quick shifts. These are the two big reasons why you're not going to trap low to mid 120's, let alone match Chuck's 119. Like I said, you're probably around 117.

Last edited by Ironshade; 06-06-2018 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 04:57 PM   #81
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In the video you can see after your 2-3 shift, you're at 4200-4300 RPMs. Again, this is going to hurt your acceleration relative to the DSG with the much shorter and closely spaced gears. You also shifted the 2-3 a little past 7K which will hurt your acceleration since you're well past where you want to shift.

Out of all the factory manual and DSG gearboxes out there for the MQB platform, yours is by far the worst. No other trans for this platform comes even close in terms of long ass gears. My best advice to you would be to go with the shortest diameter drag radial you can find. It'll make a big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironshade View Post
Heres the 3-4 shift look at mph and rev. (Blades car)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=Y3EJbwOa9Pg
Heres the 2-3 shift of my car
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1K1...0dHddeTHQ3WfHp


But to cut down the drama, what ever my car traps is cool. I only roll race cuz of 150miles daily commute to school and its taken down some heavy hitters form 60rolls. . So whatever the case may be the 5mt has been doing awesome for me. And i still think its a decent trans for is38
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Old 06-06-2018, 05:05 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armchair Racer View Post
Just a FYI, all of VW's published weights are with a full tank of fuel, not empty. So it makes sense that if the weight with a full tank of fuel is 3358 that yours would weigh 3280 with 1/3 a tank. Of course there will be other variables, such as vehicle options, scale differences etc. Was your spare in the car at the time you weighed it?

While weighing your car is cool, it still doesn't change the fact that you're dead wrong about the R DSG being heavier than the GSW 4Motion DSG. If you would've weighed an R with 1/3 tank of fuel and everything else the same as your wagon (kids toys etc), it would've weighed right around 18lbs less than your car since that is the weight difference between the two with everything else being equal.

And trap speed is not only power and weight nor is it that simple. There are many other variables at play, such as aerodynamics, traction, density altitude, gearing (including tire size), shift points and speed of shifts, just to name a few. For example, when C&D has tested certain European cars, one with a DSG trans and one with a manual, the DSG quite frequently will have not just a better ET but a higher trap. Both cars will have the same power and similar weights (if anything the DSG will weigh more) but the DSG will trap a couple MPH higher. So your statement was incorrect.

lololololol....I'm starting to understand what Ironshade was talking about. Congratulations, you might be the first person in history to argue that an internet listing is more accurate than a scale.

The car is brand new with 700 miles on it and absolutely nothing removed. Even the 5lb brick of an owner's manual is in the glovebox. So can you please show me the math that explains how 2/3 of a 13.2 gallon tank equals 88lbs? Hell, I'll even spot you the 10lbs of junk in the car and call is 78lbs. lol A gallon of gas weighs 6.2lbs. Show me the math. I can work backwards from my scale weight and get pretty close to the 3246 listed on the vw.com site with an empty tank. You're going to have a tougher time getting to 3358.

And you're right, my car wasn't that impressive for what it had done. Weight was the reason for that as well. You see, I'm a fatass and was giving up a hundred pounds to most of the other drivers. It's like I was running full interior when everyone else had the seats pulled...lol. With good air and a normal weight driver, I'm confident the car had a 11.2-11.3 in it. That being said, I ran that time almost a year and a half ago and it's still the record for an is38 R, so I'm pretty happy with it's performance. That A3 you like to keep referencing is still .3 off that mark. And shitty 60' will up the trap a bit. I had more than a few slips with a 120mph trap and crappy 60'. I just never bothered posting them because the et was garbage. And I don't see anything in that post you link that says the Audi didn't have seats or exhaust pulled. People quite often like to leave out that they pulled weight out to obtain a number. It happens quite often. Everyone misleads. Even I did it. That's why my record says full weight. I would post my times with full weight + 180lb. Which wasn't lying. It was just hiding the fact that I'm a fatass and had my seats pulled out....

And I understand there are more variables in trap. But power and weight are by the far the 2 biggest in these comparisons as the other variables are quite similar.

Look at at this way. I've already told you that my setup was almost identical to Chuck's. And while the 1.8 makes impressive power and is close to the 2.0l, you agree that it's not possible that it's making more power. And all the other variables are almost identical(minus the DA, and 1000ft isn't offsetting even a 5% power difference), what other explanation is there for him trapping the same? I'm honestly curious what you think it is.
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Old 06-06-2018, 05:54 PM   #83
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I don't think you understand. It's not a question of which is more accurate. The weight of the Sportwagen with DSG and 4Motion you got is useless for this discussion without putting the other car, the Golf R, on the same scale on the same day. We're looking for consistency here between the two, not an accurate real world weight for only one of the two cars in question. It's kind of like dynoing your car on one dyno and somebody else dynoing theirs on a completely different type of dyno somewhere else. It's not an apples to apples comparison and numbers will vary depending on the dyno and other variables. Like I said, if you put the R on that same scale, it will weight less. Volkswagen has published accurate and more importantly, COMPARATIVE curb weights for both cars using the same set of variables (scale, fuel load, etc) and the R is always lighter as per the official VW specs.

Like I said, you're not accounting for vehicle options and scale inaccuracies. The scale you went on even says it's "NON-CERTIFIED." That's for farm and garden purposes which may or may not provide accurate vehicle weights. 3,280lbs plus the 2/3 of fuel difference @ 6.2lbs per gallon is roughly 60lbs. So that brings you to 3,340 with a full tank. You're now only 18lbs away from the VW published weight. That's pretty damn close especially when you factor in differences in scales and any equipment/options between the two Sportwagens in question (VW's and yours).

I believe the reason why he was trapping about the same was mostly from the higher compression ratio. That's probably worth 15-20 HP. His race weight may also have been 100lbs less than yours depending on how just how fat you are. It's tough to answer your question without knowing exact race weights, but as you know DA will also play a role, as will where starting IATs were for both cars at the start of the run. These cars pull timing depending on IAT among other factors. So as you can see, there are a lot of variables. But I do believe the 1.8T may be able to make almost as much if not the same power as the 2.0T but only the 2.0T in the R/TTS/S3 since those cars are at a disadvantage due to the lower compression ratio.

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Originally Posted by H2OVWRacr View Post
lololololol....I'm starting to understand what Ironshade was talking about. Congratulations, you might be the first person in history to argue that an internet listing is more accurate than a scale.

The car is brand new with 700 miles on it and absolutely nothing removed. Even the 5lb brick of an owner's manual is in the glovebox. So can you please show me the math that explains how 2/3 of a 13.2 gallon tank equals 88lbs? Hell, I'll even spot you the 10lbs of junk in the car and call is 78lbs. lol A gallon of gas weighs 6.2lbs. Show me the math. I can work backwards from my scale weight and get pretty close to the 3246 listed on the vw.com site with an empty tank. You're going to have a tougher time getting to 3358.

And you're right, my car wasn't that impressive for what it had done. Weight was the reason for that as well. You see, I'm a fatass and was giving up a hundred pounds to most of the other drivers. It's like I was running full interior when everyone else had the seats pulled...lol. With good air and a normal weight driver, I'm confident the car had a 11.2-11.3 in it. That being said, I ran that time almost a year and a half ago and it's still the record for an is38 R, so I'm pretty happy with it's performance. That A3 you like to keep referencing is still .3 off that mark. And shitty 60' will up the trap a bit. I had more than a few slips with a 120mph trap and crappy 60'. I just never bothered posting them because the et was garbage. And I don't see anything in that post you link that says the Audi didn't have seats or exhaust pulled. People quite often like to leave out that they pulled weight out to obtain a number. It happens quite often. Everyone misleads. Even I did it. That's why my record says full weight. I would post my times with full weight + 180lb. Which wasn't lying. It was just hiding the fact that I'm a fatass and had my seats pulled out....

And I understand there are more variables in trap. But power and weight are by the far the 2 biggest in these comparisons as the other variables are quite similar.

Look at at this way. I've already told you that my setup was almost identical to Chuck's. And while the 1.8 makes impressive power and is close to the 2.0l, you agree that it's not possible that it's making more power. And all the other variables are almost identical(minus the DA, and 1000ft isn't offsetting even a 5% power difference), what other explanation is there for him trapping the same? I'm honestly curious what you think it is.
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Old 06-06-2018, 06:57 PM   #84
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You can actually go on Car and Driver and download their hand written test sheets. I di this when I was trying to come up with an OEM+ spring set up for my car. According to their scales:
Golf R manual = 3,329lbs
Golf R DSG = 3,409
GSW4 DSG = 3,331
Alltrack DSG. = 3,497
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Old 06-06-2018, 07:02 PM   #85
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Looks about right to me, I could see the weight difference between the R and sport wagon being due to the larger brakes and wheels.

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