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Old 06-14-2019, 05:30 AM   #1
emonstorm21
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Brake problems

Has anyone had problems with stock gti calipers catching on fire and melting the factory paint? Anyone have any suggestions for a big brake kit. I was thinking about running the golf r brakes. Any thoughts?

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Old 06-14-2019, 02:31 PM   #2
Mini7
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I’m assuming you did your first DE?

Stock pads?

Performance Pack/R brakes will be an improvement
Pagid RSL29’s
RS3 Air Diverters
Castrol SRF Brake fluid or similar track spec
Titanium Heat Shields

If you are new to DEs work on getting seat time, learning the car and learning to drive.
You will eventually outrun the PP/R brakes as you gain experience and compress the brakes zones. If you get hooked and want to do DEs on a regular basis, then a BBK will be the better tool for the job.

I run a PowerBrake BBK. Super happy with the quality and the braking performance. I was able to compress my brake zones safely and dropped 2-seconds off my laptimes.


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Old 06-14-2019, 02:35 PM   #3
Dybz
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I ran 3 track events with non-PP brakes with a street/track pad. That was a mistake and I had the same issue as you. My front brakes are both charred and look like yours. I have a set of PP brakes sitting in the garage that will be going on this weekend.
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:05 PM   #4
yirayira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini7 View Post
Performance Pack/R brakes will be an improvement
Pagid RSL29’s
RS3 Air Diverters
Castrol SRF Brake fluid or similar track spec
Titanium Heat Shields
All good ideas! The 986 calipers are a great alternative to the R brakes. 4-pot, cheaper used, and about half the weight. Remember to remove the heat/dust shields behind the rotors, I only had to make that mistake once...
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Last edited by yirayira; 06-15-2019 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:05 PM   #5
Dybz
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Originally Posted by yirayira View Post
All good ideas! The 986 calipers are a great alternative to the R brakes. 4-pot, cheaper used, and about half the weight. Remember to remove the heat/dust shields behind the rotors, I only had to make that mistake once...
Just remember that the 986 brakes wont actually run any cooler, but will give you more options to get more aggressive brake pads that can deal with the track better.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:52 AM   #6
yirayira
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Just remember that the 986 brakes wont actually run any cooler, but will give you more options to get more aggressive brake pads that can deal with the track better.
Correct it's the same 312mm rotor. Aluminum does retain less heat but you'll reach the limits of the floating performance caliper well before you max the heat capacity of a 312mm rotor. With proper maintenance and technique I doubt I'll ever need or benefit from an expensive big brake kit. VCDS mods to remove automated braking and rotor drying help a ton. Once you get the hang of things you'll notice XDS+ doesn't help you drive better or faster

If you really want the look of 340mm get the TTS calipers. It sucks the design is closed back but you'll have the confidence of a solid caliper

At the end of the day spend your brake dollar wisely. FCP carries the Hawk DCT-60 and stock slotted rotors and stainless lines. Pay once and replace for shipping costs is my plan
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:49 AM   #7
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I do not agree with that at all. The rotor is the limiting factor.

340x30 rotors don’t have sufficient heat capacity for serious track work. The 312 diameter has even less. Stock single piston calipers have sufficient braking power to exceed the grip available from the tire. In simple terms, the brake systems ability to resist fade is largely determined by the systems ability to absorb and dissipate heat. Think of the rotor as a heat sink. Aside from gaining brake torque, larger (heavier) rotors provide better heat sink capacity.

Larger pads = longer pad life, all things being equal. Run any pad outside it’s heat range and they will wear fast plus fade on you.

My PP brakes would start fading after 5-6 laps at VIR and I would have to back up a couple brake markers. VIR has 3 long straights which allow the rotors to dissipate heat between big brake events. Shorter twistier tracks, tax the brakes worse as there is little to no recovery time for rotors to dissipate heat.

Long story short, I was able to run an hour long session on track with my PowerBrake BBK with no issues, no fade.

Track Pads
Track spec Brake fluid
Fresh Fluid before every event
Seat Time
seat Time

With experience I outran my PP brakes. I run 4-5 events every year and opted for a BBK. I should have upgraded before the track season last year.
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Last edited by Mini7; 06-17-2019 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 02:16 PM   #8
Dybz
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Originally Posted by Mini7 View Post
I do not agree with that at all. The rotor is the limiting factor.

340x30 rotors don’t have sufficient heat capacity for serious track work. The 312 diameter has even less. Stock single piston calipers have sufficient braking power to exceed the grip available from the tire. In simple terms, the brake systems ability to resist fade is largely determined by the systems ability to absorb and dissipate heat. Think of the rotor as a heat sink. Aside from gaining brake torque, larger (heavier) rotors provide better heat sink capacity.

Larger pads = longer pad life, all things being equal. Run any pad outside it’s heat range and they will wear fast plus fade on you.

My PP brakes would start fading after 5-6 laps at VIR and I would have to back up a couple brake markers. VIR has 3 long straights which allow the rotors to dissipate heat between big brake events. Shorter twistier tracks, tax the brakes worse as there is little to no recovery time for rotors to dissipate heat.

Long story short, I was able to run an hour long session on track with my PowerBrake BBK with no issues, no fade.

Track Pads
Track spec Brake fluid
Fresh Fluid before every event
Seat Time
seat Time

With experience I outran my PP brakes. I run 4-5 events every year and opted for a BBK. I should have upgraded before the track season last year.
This seems a bit disingenuous. 340mm x 30mm are large rotors and quite capable of handling stock powered GTI track duty if you have the proper pads (and fluid).

There are plenty of golf r guys still using the 340mm fronts and running in higher groups.

Last edited by Dybz; 06-17-2019 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:48 PM   #9
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I ran my PP brakes for two years. Had no issues with the stock all season tires on my first DE in the GTi. I installed MPS4S and dropped 4-5seconds with the 300tw tires and the PP brakes started to struggle. I donít think you got the advice I was trying to relay.

Based on my experience, I do not believe that the base GTi 312mm rotor is up to the job. The 986 caliper is not the weak link in the brake system. Brake systems are complex because of all the variables at play. I was keeping things simple by just focusing on the rotor. If you are going to run DEís long term, it would be wise to upgrade to a BBK. PP brakes are adequate at best. It will be challenging to compress brake zones and make up any time. Expect brakes to fall off towards the end of 25-min sessions and adjust brake points accordingly.
Especially if you are going to run hard. Expect to replace rotors every season and be prepared to do quick bleeds between sessions to maintain a firm pedal.
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Last edited by Mini7; 06-18-2019 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Mini7 View Post
I ran my PP brakes for two years. Had no issues with the stock all season tires on my first DE in the GTi. I installed MPS4S and dropped 4-5seconds with the 300tw tires and the PP brakes started to struggle. I donít think you got the advice I was trying to relay.

Based on my experience, I do not believe that the base GTi 312mm rotor is up to the job. The 986 caliper is not the weak link in the brake system. Brake systems are complex because of all the variables at play. I was keeping things simple by just focusing on the rotor. If you are going to run DEís long term, it would be wise to upgrade to a BBK. PP brakes are adequate at best. It will be challenging to compress brake zones and make up any time. Expect brakes to fall off towards the end of 25-min sessions and adjust brake points accordingly.
Especially if you are going to run hard. Expect to replace rotors every season and be prepared to do quick bleeds between sessions to maintain a firm pedal.
I guess I am confused by your definition of BBK if 340mm isnt enough. Fo you need 360mm and bigger? Plenty of folks run 330 with 4 piston and 340 PP brakes. The rotor is what does majority of the cooling so bit confused why you had issues on stock power with 340mm. What pads did you have?
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:14 PM   #11
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I agree with Mini7. PP brakes just aren't up to it for serious track use. Mine are right on the edge now after spending a lot of time modifying them to functioning for more than a few laps. This is on a stock car with stock suspension running 80tw tyres.
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:56 PM   #12
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Mini knows his stuff and I tend to agree with him on a lot. I don't doubt a better overall setup, like getting a BBK helps, but I personally choose to go about things by fixing things one at a time.

On the PP setup, the caliper does a fine job locking up the wheels with my 200TW tires from 130mph, but the modulation once you lock the wheel is where the sliding piston calipers lack. I almost always lock the front left wheel down the straight at my home track before a 55 mph turn in. I have fluids, pads, lines swapped. I just can't get enough cooling to the rotor, even with the rs3 ducts. A BBK won't solve that for me, but running some hoses to the area should. This winter I plan to put some NACA ducts under the front bumper behind the fog lights, with a block off plate for road use, and run the hoses around and mount to the arms, then just drill a hole into the stock backing plate. We'll see how that works. The other limiting factor is the stock rotors. They just don't move or vent well enough. I plan to go to a girodisc or racingbrake rotor and see how much that helps. I would argue most of the benefit of a BBK is from the two piece rotors and better lines, and the caliper is more a thing of "feel" and pedal modulation.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:00 PM   #13
Dybz
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I would argue most of the benefit of a BBK is from the two piece rotors and better lines, and the caliper is more a thing of "feel" and pedal modulation.
This is what I thought and why I am confused by Mini's statements.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:29 PM   #14
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I upgraded to Prosystem rotors and Endless ME22 pads. Haven't cooked my brakes yet and that's with 80TW semi slicks.

-Castrol SRF
-Yperion titanium shims
-SS lines
-RS3 ducts with trimmed brake shields
-Endless ME22 (had MX72 before as well)

My temp paint showed I went past 800C on my stock rotors whereas with the new rotors I hit 600C-ish. Directionally vaned and ventilation is very important, since the stock rotors have too much mass but not enough of an air gap for this type of punishment. It's great for longevity but not for cooling.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:51 PM   #15
victorofhavoc
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This is what I thought and why I am confused by Mini's statements.
I think he just gave more info to illustrate his point, but might not have been 100% clear. He stated the rotors, not the calipers are the issue and the 986 caliper won't help in the heat dissipation department. He merely mentioned his BBK, because it was an all in one upgrade for him that helped with everything (pad life, temps, etc), not that a BBK was the only solution .
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:56 AM   #16
Mini7
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Originally Posted by burgerkong View Post
I upgraded to Prosystem rotors and Endless ME22 pads. Haven't cooked my brakes yet and that's with 80TW semi slicks.

-Castrol SRF
-Yperion titanium shims
-SS lines
-RS3 ducts with trimmed brake shields
-Endless ME22 (had MX72 before as well)

My temp paint showed I went past 800C on my stock rotors whereas with the new rotors I hit 600C-ish. Directionally vaned and ventilation is very important, since the stock rotors have too much mass but not enough of an air gap for this type of punishment. It's great for longevity but not for cooling.
Folks I do my best to provide unbiased feedback for track day use. Most definitely not my intention to mislead in any way shape or form. I use the stopwatch to judge the merits of mods. Reliability and safety are important factors to consider as well.

Not all vented rotors are created equal. Width, curved vanes, the metallurgy make-up of the rotors and the ability of the rotors to absorb heat. Rotors are the limiting factor not the calipers regarding brake performance. That was the point I was trying to make about the earlier post about the Porsche caliper.

Iím running a 330x32 4-Piston BBK. I do not consider a sliding caliper a BBK, even if it is running a 340x30mm rotor. The only reason why I am running a 330mm setup is because I have chosen to run 17Ē wheels to run 255 wide rubber. Tires will be your biggest performance variable to reduce lap time. I tend to focus on suspension and setup before adding power. I would prefer to run a 350 BBK setup for better heat management and longevity. A 6-piston caliper will only gain you longer pad life because of the larger pad area.

I digress, long story short, my 330x32 BBK runs cooler than my 340x30 PP with Pagid RSL 29ís ever did (i run RS3 air deflectors and had Ti heat shields on my PP) No fade, no boiling fluid or vapor lock issues like I had with my PP with Castroís SRF. Verified by the temp strips I ran on the PP calipers. I dropped 2-secs off my laptime by compressing my brake zones.

PP brakes are marginally adequate at best for track work. An experienced driver will eventually outrun the capability of PP brakes. 25-30 minute track sessions would mean backing up a couple of brake markers because the rotors have become heat soaked and brake fade sets in. I ran PP brakes for two years on track. Depending on the track you can run hard for 5-6 laps and then need to back off in the brake zones. Iím on stock power.

Based on my application, PowerBrake recommended their 350x34 6-piston setup. Unfortunately it would not fit a 17Ē wheel so I chose there smaller BBK setup. Again its not about the number of pistons. Stoptech has a 355x32 4-piston setup Essex Parts has a 355x32 6-piston kit. For long term track work this is the way to go. More so if you have graduated to solo driving. The larger rotor has the capacity to absorb the heat. Wider rotor widths allows for better heat dissipation and cooling.

Donít get me wrong, PP brakes work. You will need track pads and good brake fluid. RS3 air deflectors, Titanium heat shields. Brake fluid needs to be bled regularly. That has been my experience.
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:33 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Mini7 View Post
Folks I do my best to provide unbiased feedback for track day use. Most definitely not my intention to mislead in any way shape or form. I use the stopwatch to judge the merits of mods. Reliability and safety are important factors to consider as well.

Not all vented rotors are created equal. Width, curved vanes, the metallurgy make-up of the rotors and the ability of the rotors to absorb heat. Rotors are the limiting factor not the calipers regarding brake performance. That was the point I was trying to make about the earlier post about the Porsche caliper.

Iím running a 330x32 4-Piston BBK. I do not consider a sliding caliper a BBK, even if it is running a 340x30mm rotor. The only reason why I am running a 330mm setup is because I have chosen to run 17Ē wheels to run 255 wide rubber. Tires will be your biggest performance variable to reduce lap time. I tend to focus on suspension and setup before adding power. I would prefer to run a 350 BBK setup for better heat management and longevity. A 6-piston caliper will only gain you longer pad life because of the larger pad area.

I digress, long story short, my 330x32 BBK runs cooler than my 340x30 PP with Pagid RSL 29ís ever did (i run RS3 air deflectors and had Ti heat shields on my PP) No fade, no boiling fluid or vapor lock issues like I had with my PP with Castroís SRF. Verified by the temp strips I ran on the PP calipers. I dropped 2-secs off my laptime by compressing my brake zones.

PP brakes are marginally adequate at best for track work. An experienced driver will eventually outrun the capability of PP brakes. 25-30 minute track sessions would mean backing up a couple of brake markers because the rotors have become heat soaked and brake fade sets in. I ran PP brakes for two years on track. Depending on the track you can run hard for 5-6 laps and then need to back off in the brake zones. Iím on stock power.

Based on my application, PowerBrake recommended their 350x34 6-piston setup. Unfortunately it would not fit a 17Ē wheel so I chose there smaller BBK setup. Again its not about the number of pistons. Stoptech has a 355x32 4-piston setup Essex Parts has a 355x32 6-piston kit. For long term track work this is the way to go. More so if you have graduated to solo driving. The larger rotor has the capacity to absorb the heat. Wider rotor widths allows for better heat dissipation and cooling.

Donít get me wrong, PP brakes work. You will need track pads and good brake fluid. RS3 air deflectors, Titanium heat shields. Brake fluid needs to be bled regularly. That has been my experience.
Also better rotors. Anything less than Girodisc, Prosystems or Stoptech Aerorotors (if you can convince them to make a 340mmx30mm size) is asking for trouble. The stock rotors are too good at holding heat in and thusly overheating the pads, but shed heat very slowly.
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