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Old 07-26-2017, 02:10 AM   #18
breaking badly
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEhLGe_M6XU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElaMcoO_drg

http://www.wavetrac.net/technical.htm

What do you think is happening between the two surfaces?









That's probably the friction disc = clutch:






Quote:
The Wavetrac® diff’s behavior can be altered in the field to suit your needs. It comes standard with carbon-fiber bias plates for the best all around performance and lifetime durability. Changeable plates using materials with different friction coefficients to fine-tune the bias ratio are sold separately.
These bias plates provide a mechanism to tune the response of the differential as a function of applied torque load. The applied torque load manifests itself as an axial load from the differential pinions into the housing. This axial force is then considered a normal force into the bias plate, and as a function of the effective coefficient of friction, provide a resistive torque to the rotational motion of the differential pinions. The resistive torque will add to the resistance of relative rotation of all components within the differential. The resistive force, however, is non-uniform since it is a function of the axial load from the differential pinions. The unbalance of the resistive torque will manifest as non-uniform energy absorption within the differential causing a bias ratio.



However, I use to recommend the Wavetrac LSD for years. I don't wanna
say it's bad at all. I just think it's better swapping the oil from time to time.
You certainly don't need to convince me on it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nonbiodegradable weasel View Post
Wavetrac's website indicates that it is a maintenance-free part. Install it and forget it.
There's friction happening (under the forementioned zero-load conditions).
Friction means wear. I'd swap it every three years and anually when tracking.
Feel free to do it your own way.
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Old 07-26-2017, 02:56 AM   #19
nonbiodegradable weasel
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breaking badly View Post
The Wavetrac has additional clutch packs. That's why it's superior to Torsen-only LSDs
under harder conditions (one wheel losing ground contact). And that's why you'd want
to swap oil frequently too.


How did you perform a comparison to the PP's VAQ diff when you own a non-PP?

Just to avoid some misunderstanding, the VAQ LSD has a locking capability of 100 %.
I don't get why it should perform worse under non-ideal conditions.


.
You assume I have no GTI friends! The mechanical is more responsive. While I believe the PP diff is a proactive unit (based on throttle and steering angle), I can attest that many have stated the WaveTrac feels much more responsive after driving my car.

I assume that a "Diff tune", similar to haldex controllers on Mk6's, would bring the PP diff closer to wavetrac performance?

In addition, I have to believe that the clutch packs in the PP diff will lose performance in extreme scenarios (ex: racing) as most clutch-type diffs do, even high end ones. That's why you usually see diff coolers on race cars. Now, I don't have any data to know the exact effects of this with the PP, but I'd be curious if locking deteriorates on track days.
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
However, I use to recommend the Wavetrac LSD for years. I don't wanna
say it's bad at all. I just think it's better swapping the oil from time to time.
You certainly don't need to convince me on it.

Do you just mean swapping the fluid or cracking open the diff and swapping out that transfer plate? I'm running 75W-90 Motul fluid, and have about 20K miles on the diff with 1 track day, a few autoX's, and many canyon runs. Performance only seems to have improved since day 1, lol. Should I still change it?

My thinking was every 30-40K miles?
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Old 07-26-2017, 06:49 PM   #22
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Just swapping the oil. Another question is which oil to use, as conventional plate-LSDs
used to require dedicated 'LS' gear oil. Volkswagen suggest a 3-year interval and that's
probably also fine for a Wavertrac. So 30-40K miles sounds reasonable.

Fine-tuning the PP's VAQ is another story. Not sure if we had the before, but it should
feel somewhat different depending on whether driving profile is set to sport or normal.
To be honest I didn't experience a clear difference yet though, neither on my CS nor on
my girlfriend's PP as I didn't track them so far.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:24 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrConflicted View Post
You assume I have no GTI friends! The mechanical is more responsive. While I believe the PP diff is a proactive unit (based on throttle and steering angle), I can attest that many have stated the WaveTrac feels much more responsive after driving my car.

I assume that a "Diff tune", similar to haldex controllers on Mk6's, would bring the PP diff closer to wavetrac performance?

In addition, I have to believe that the clutch packs in the PP diff will lose performance in extreme scenarios (ex: racing) as most clutch-type diffs do, even high end ones. That's why you usually see diff coolers on race cars. Now, I don't have any data to know the exact effects of this with the PP, but I'd be curious if locking deteriorates on track days.
I've experienced no decrease in VAQ performance during my HPDE sessions (20 mins). Often times my fastest times are in laps 4-6 which is 15 mins into the session.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:22 PM   #24
MrConflicted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breaking badly View Post
Just swapping the oil. Another question is which oil to use, as conventional plate-LSDs
used to require dedicated 'LS' gear oil. Volkswagen suggest a 3-year interval and that's
probably also fine for a Wavertrac. So 30-40K miles sounds reasonable.

Fine-tuning the PP's VAQ is another story. Not sure if we had the before, but it should
feel somewhat different depending on whether driving profile is set to sport or normal.
To be honest I didn't experience a clear difference yet though, neither on my CS nor on
my girlfriend's PP as I didn't track them so far.
WaveTrac explicitly states NOT to use a friction modifier-type fluid in their diff. Motul 75W-90 and 75W-140 were the only fluids they quoted as "recommended".
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:24 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drrck View Post
I've experienced no decrease in VAQ performance during my HPDE sessions (20 mins). Often times my fastest times are in laps 4-6 which is 15 mins into the session.
Fantastic news really. I've yet to drive a PP car on track (and don't imagine the opportunity will come up anytime soon), but, I'd love to experience it.

I feel like PP people always get a little butt hurt when I say the WaveTrac edges it out, but, make no mistake, if I could do it over again I'd buy a PP car from the get-go. For 2x the cost of the performance pack (including installation labor), god damn right the WaveTrac better beat out the PP diff! Lol!
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:10 AM   #26
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indeed i just use the stock dsg oil which is also recommended by wavetrac on my 7R.I change the oil yearly for peace of mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrConflicted View Post
WaveTrac explicitly states NOT to use a friction modifier-type fluid in their diff. Motul 75W-90 and 75W-140 were the only fluids they quoted as "recommended".
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Old 01-23-2018, 03:55 AM   #27
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About how much do these cost to have installed? I heard it's a pretty difficult job.
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:48 PM   #28
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This ^^^^ Im very curious to hear how long it took for the install as well.
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Old 02-23-2018, 06:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal1 View Post
About how much do these cost to have installed? I heard it's a pretty difficult job.
I'm currently in the process of getting this done and I can tell you right now it's a costly job. Since I'm stage 2 and my clutch was slipping, I decided to add the Wavetrac to save money since the transmission would already be apart. The shop stated it would be an 8 hour job for the clutch and 5 hours for the Wavetrac. Multiply that by whatever your shop charges hourly and you get the idea.

What I mentioned is just the beginning though. There's the "recommended" bolt kit and bearings. Quick tip, they're required. Bolt kit is $150 and the bearings are $90 on top of the cost of the $1,100 LSD. There's also the fluids and the gaskets that's around $100-200 depending on the shop. Don't forget the costly alignment that needs to be completed once all is said and done.

Not done yet. There's one caveat with the Wavetrac and our setup. From Wavetrac: "Even with the OEM diff, it is very small, and even the factory has to take material off, which you'll see how each gearbox will have more or less material than the next". So I found this out the hard way. The shop called me and said it would take two hours to completely shave down the extra material to make the LSD fit. In addition to this, you'll need another ride since your car will be out of commission for a couple days.

So mine is a 6MT, if you're considering doing this on your DSG equipped vehicle, prepare to dig deep in your pockets because it's a much more involved job.

I'm picking it up today and my expectations are high but from what I read the results are worth it, especially if you're already upgrading your clutch. I'll fill you guys in on my thoughts once I've driven it a bit. Hope this helps you guys out.
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Old 02-23-2018, 06:31 PM   #30
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Thanks for the in depth update. Keep us posted.
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:31 PM   #31
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Just got back from picking up my GTI and I have to say the attention I could have paid to the LSD was occupied by all the added sensory distractions of the new clutch. The added chatter during acceleration (there's a lot) and trying hard to break in the clutch without driving it in my usual spirited manner made it difficult for sure.

Nevertheless, during the latter half of my drive I really started to notice the LSD. The best way I can explain it is (at lower speeds anyway) is like driving one of those theme park go carts that are on rails. Additionally, the steering feels a bit heavier and the car feels so planted. With the two upgrades combined, it makes the car seem like it's begging to be pushed and that makes it frustrating that I can't right now.

Overall, the cost was $1,860 out the door for all the aforementioned work. With all that was involved and the breaks they gave me (apparently a proper alignment for our cars at VW is $300???) it wasn't too bad considering I was expecting to pay $1,600 and didn't realize there was going to be extra work needed.

For those of you interested, I'll fill in more details if I seem to get some posted interest in this thread.
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:08 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Das_GTI View Post
Just got back from picking up my GTI and I have to say the attention I could have paid to the LSD was occupied by all the added sensory distractions of the new clutch. The added chatter during acceleration (there's a lot) and trying hard to break in the clutch without driving it in my usual spirited manner made it difficult for sure.

Nevertheless, during the latter half of my drive I really started to notice the LSD. The best way I can explain it is (at lower speeds anyway) is like driving one of those theme park go carts that are on rails. Additionally, the steering feels a bit heavier and the car feels so planted. With the two upgrades combined, it makes the car seem like it's begging to be pushed and that makes it frustrating that I can't right now.

Overall, the cost was $1,860 out the door for all the aforementioned work. With all that was involved and the breaks they gave me (apparently a proper alignment for our cars at VW is $300???) it wasn't too bad considering I was expecting to pay $1,600 and didn't realize there was going to be extra work needed.

For those of you interested, I'll fill in more details if I seem to get some posted interest in this thread.
I'm definitely interested! Thanks for the updates!
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