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swcrow

swcrow

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia
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To really discover the "best" is to have spec sheets with breakdowns, over large distances with specific intervals of testing

I've had Blackstone oil labs run tests on T6 in my WRX at 6k internals over 90k with great results..... All levels where they should be for metallic breakdown, etc. (2.5L turbo stage 3)

I've done the same with Blackstone labs for Motul 8300 at 5k intervals over 100k on 1.8t B5 stage 3 Passat, with same results.
 
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knollMk7

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"There is no “best” anything."

The point of my question exactly. As much as many board members are fascinated with oil discussions, we only know 4 aspects for certain:

1. The oil certifications recommended by VW i.e. 502/505, 504/507 etc depending on your vehicle and the Bulletins issued by VW that list certified brands
2. The oils that meet those specs and in some, but not all cases, their individual component analysis.
3. Post-facto oil analysis by individuals on their own vehicles, which may or may not be valid for generalization.
4. The oil change interval recommended by VW vs. our individual choice to change more (or less) frequently.

It seems to me that all other debates, while entertaining, still mean that oil brand choices are guesswork.

Unless we are petroleum engineers, engaged in vehicle lubricant research, I don't think we have much to contribute to the conversation. Even then, I''ll bet the majority of those engineers buy "whatever is on sale" that meets the specs.

Vehicle lubrication engineers or chemists, please weigh in!
 
J

JWTS

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WA
knollMk7 said:
so,
1. What company has the BEST 502 oil?

2. What company has the BEST 504 oil?
Click to expand...

"Best" is obviously subjective. I'll simply say this:

1) 502 is an old spec and not that difficult to meet. If you're looking for a 502 oil, I'd look for one that meets other, more rigorous specs as well as 502, such as BMW LL01 and Mercedes 229.5

2) 504 is a much more rigorous spec meet, and you're not going to find any poor quality 504 oils. The older M1 5W30 ESP Formula fits the bill for me. It has the lowest volatility and highest flash point of any 504 oil I've seen, confirmed by independent analysis: https://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/6709-mobil-1-esp-formula-5w-30-svezhee/

It also has a ton of builder approvals and is $7.99 a quart online. That makes it "best for me". Interestingly, it's also a " fake synthetic" in the eyes of some, since it's about 40% Group III, most likely GTL. It also uses esters and some PAO. But again, there are no bad 504 oils, they all perform very well, as it's a tough spec to meet.
 
T

TechGuy32

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I didn't read this whole thread so if this info. has already been posted forgive me... :)

Objective testing by VW to certify engine oils is to insure that the approved oils meet the performance requirements for specific engine families. These requirements vary by both engine families, intended operating drain intervals and government regulations. An approved engine oil supplier unlike a boutique oil purveyor is not allowed to change the oil chemistry without having the new oil tested and approved to meet the VW oil spec.

That being said any of the approved 502/505 oils should serve VW owners well if that is the oil spec for your vehicle. I doubt anyone other than VW would be able to show objective statistical data that shows any substantial performance advantage of one approved 502/505 oil over another unless a lab is freely publishing VW oil spec test data.

VW 504 spec oils are low emissions oils. They may or may not be any better than VW 502 oils other than meeting Euro low emissions standards. VW 505 oils are also low emissions oils with more specific evaporation specs based on viscosity. Without knowing all of the specs for all of the VW oil standards and what impact they have on your engine family, no one short of a VW tribologist/engineer is going to be able to tell you if your engine will see any particular benefit from it.

I'm well aware that engine oil is a religion for some and that people like to believe marketing claims which are often carefully worded to escape lawsuits yet making a specific oil seem superior to the competition. There is certainly lab and field testing along with anecdotal evidence that fully synthetic oils have the potential to be superior to non-synthetic oils. Some engines require fully synthetic oils to comply with the engine warranty. Regardless of base oil stock the additive package is the most important aspect of engine oil. The oil's chemistry is vital to meeting the engine's needs. There are oils that are perfectly good for many engines or meet many oil standards but they do not have the correct properties to meet the VW 502 or other VW oil specs mandated for a given engine family.

The VW new car warranty requires the use of engine oils certified (approved to meet), to the VW spec in your OM not just oils "recommended for use for VW oil spec ABC". Oils that are "recommended" have not been certified by VW to meet the VW oil specs and these can void your new car warranty. Most VW oils are backwards compatible but not VW 508/509.

https://www.oilspecifications.org/volkswagen.php

My comment at the bottom of the thread link below will give you an idea of what Used Oil Analysis (UOA), can and can not do.

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49246
 
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J

JWTS

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WA
AspektZA said:
There's no benefit to using 504 oil.


The sulphur content in fuel doesn't allow for 20,000mi oil intervals.


People on this forum are too scared to run their 502 oil longer than 5k mi anyway.
Click to expand...

All 3 of those statements are false..but, carry on...
 
T

TechGuy32

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surrealjam said:
It doesn't matter what oil you use
Click to expand...

...as long as it's certified to be the correct spec for your engine. :)

To paraphrase a common saying: "If you have a $25 engine then buy the oil that's 5 qts. for $25. and your engine will get exactly what you paid for". Naturally if you engine is worth more than $25. or under warranty then this is not recommended at all and will void your warranty and possibly damage your engine.
 
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D

DiscusInferno

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Kalifornia
JWTS said:
All 3 of those statements are false..but, carry on...
Click to expand...
how is the 2nd statement false?

yes, the 10 ppm sulfur gas requirement was passed by the EPA in 2017, states still need to catch up. Remember the 10 ppm is average, not max.

504/507 oils are handicapped by lower starting TBN in the first place.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
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T

TechGuy32

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DiscusInferno said:
how is the 2nd statement false?

yes, the 10 ppm sulfur gas requirement was passed by the EPA in 2017, states still need to catch up. Remember the 10 ppm is average, not max.

504/507 oils are handicapped by lower starting TBN in the first place.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Lower initial TBN does not necessarily equate to insufficient TBN. A UOA can determine the remaining TBN.
 
swcrow

swcrow

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
7.5 GTI
Let's not let this become a 'tex thread please
 
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