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IS38 1.8T Info/Discussion

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
I’ve seen lots of dynos from both IS38 gti and stage 2 golf R. Seems like the majority of the golf R are around 335whp and the gti are usually 350+. I’ve seen as higher in the gti and also the R, but that seems to be the norm. The torque difference is also usually a greater spread as well going in favor to the gti
 
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Slick99

Ready to race!
Location
Karachi, Pak
More incorrect armchair racing. You used 2015 and 2017 so you could use google numbers. Go to vw.com and compare the 2017s side by side. Turns out I misremembered the numbers. The GSW is actually 94lbs lighter...my bad. 2017 Golf R=3340, 2017 GSW 4motion=3246. Both those weights are with DSG.

And I can assure you that the Rs on the list are most definitely pushing the limit of the is38. You see, the R at the top of that is38 list was mine. The day I ran that number the car was running 100oct in the tank plus watermeth with jb4 stacked over a UM flash and full bolt ons. Seeing 30psi in 4th with 17 degrees of timing. Seats pulled out, open downpipe with an electric cutout and Hoosier drag radials. Pretty much identical setup to what Chuck was running. The only real difference is that he had his exhaust pulled, saving around 50lbs and he weighs 190 to my 285. That, combined with the lighter weight of the GSW adds up to around 250lbs lighter. And his air was better. 0DA to my 1000DA. Other than that, our setups are almost identical. In fact, I would say the biggest common factor in our setups is that George had a hand in both our cars helping us wring every last bit out of the is38. You know, the guy you're arguing with about piston failures.

If we've established that the 1.8 makes less power than the 2.0, and that the Rs at the top of the list are pushing just as hard as Chuck is, then the difference is weight. That's all that's left. Which is the same reason that the IS38 GTIs are trapping in the 120s. They are significantly lighter than the R. And that's how a 1.8 making less power than the 2.0 is trapping the same. Less weight.

https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/golf-sportwagen/specs/2017/volkswagen-golf-sportwagen/387798

C&D shows curb weight of GSW 3358lbs manual and 3415lbs dsg.
 

Faceman

Autocross Newbie
Location
Long Island
Car(s)
'17 GSW 4Mo

Slick99

Ready to race!
Location
Karachi, Pak
In which trim?



They list the DSG 4Motion as 3325lbs.
Those are weight of 2018, the link i shared is 2017 GSW "S" 4motion.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
 

crxgator

Autocross Champion
Location
Raleigh, NC
Car(s)
All the MQBs
Be happy you don’t have an Alltrack. It’s about 3775 with me in it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

H2OVWRacr

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Socal

http://www.vw.com/models/golf-sport...edit/tab/summary/transmission-type/automatic/


2017 GSW 4motion w. DSG = 3246 as per VW website, not a magazine that posts inaccurate numbers all the time. You can go in and change trims and options and watch the weights change. And it's pretty damn accurate to what people are posting for real world numbers. I'm pretty sure the VW numbers are with empty fuel tanks, but they are accurate to each other and that is the important part.
 

H2OVWRacr

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Socal
Here you go guys. I stopped by the local public scale on the way to work this morning so we could stop armchair weighing. Lol. I wanted to get an official weight anyways.

This was with a 1/3 tank of gas and about 10lbs of junk in the car(kid’s booster seat and toys and whatnot)



Trap speed is power and weight. It’s that simple.
 

crxgator

Autocross Champion
Location
Raleigh, NC
Car(s)
All the MQBs
Ugh. I need that weight. Next time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Armchair Racer

Go Kart Champion
Location
Florida
I _never_ said they have the same drivetrain loss. What I said is a car with a modern and technologically advanced Haldex AWD system like the Golf R will only have 1-2% more drivetrain loss than a FWD Golf. You were trying to say it was an extra 15% lol. It's nowhere even close to that.

Unless you're running shorter diameter front tires than stock, the speeds and RPMs you've listed below do not add up. Not surprising since you seem to BS everything. For example, at the end of the 2-3 shift, you'll be at closer to 4200 RPMs than the 4500 you listed. Now for reference let's take a look at the APR dyno sheet for an IS38 on 1.8T. This won't be exactly the same as your car since you're running more boost and other mods but the shape of the curve will be very similar.



Now check out how much power you're making at 4200 RPMs after the 2-3 shift. Compare how much power it makes at 4200 RPMs vs say 5200, which is about where the DSG would have been assuming the same shift point and tire size. It's a 50+ WHP difference which is enormous. As you can see, you're at a much lower RPM and making a lot less power too. You now have to crawl back into the meat of the powerband. This is one reason why the DSG will beat you. The other is the DSG has lightning quick shifts. These are the two big reasons why you're not going to trap low to mid 120's, let alone match Chuck's 119. Like I said, you're probably around 117.


I lost intrest in arugung with armchair racer when he said fwd has same drive train loss as awd car lol. When gti’s on is38 are doing 5-6mph traps higher than Rs on same setup

On side note my s model weighed 3110 on scales with towhitch/stock exhaust and spare/tools and full tank of gas. With some weight removal low 2900lbs sound reasonable? I gotta gut it and and turn it loose on apr100 flash for the stack. With 17’ timing request vs my current 12 to see how she does.

Weight photo - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1D0SQNk_Ifo4Kvd-YsaqXlAj9MkyjLGz1

As far as boost goes me and chuck are running idential boost currenty. But anyway i’ll be at track soon. Currently scoping on a wheel/tire setup.

The 60-100mph video i posted was loading 3rd. Not reving 2nd out to ~73mph (powerband) then getting back in the (powerband) till end of 3rd at 119mph. But anyway
your s6 definitely moves. But i’m not bench racing. I’m basing my performance off cars i’ve raced that have gone to the track. I don’t think i’m streaching it saying its a low120mph car.

5mt 2-3 shift end up at ~4500 and 3-4shift ends up at ~4800 how is that out of the power?

Fyi we all owe chuck a cookie for pushing platform and getting more vendors involved
 

Armchair Racer

Go Kart Champion
Location
Florida
AWD on the MQB platform doesn't add quite that much weight. If you look at all the official weights VW has listed for the various FWD and AWD Golf models, one can reasonably deduce that AWD adds somewhere around 200lbs. Now with that said, a Golf R can weigh more than 200lbs than a base GTI for reasons such as:

More standard equipment and amenities than a base GTI
GTI can be 2 doors whereas the R can't (this is a pretty big weight difference)
Golf R has bigger and heavier wheels and brakes than the base GTI

That's assuming the AWD system is always on, which it isn't. While it absolutely will suffer more drivetrain loss, when you look at load vs. time the amount of additional loss is appreciably smaller than I think you're accounting for. This is the whole reason haldex systems exist, and are becoming as prevalent as they are. Otherwise it's just spinning the driveshaft, which again is more drivetrain loss, but not much.



Weight. AWD setupts add about 3-400lbs, when you start looking at HP/Weight it makes sense.
 

Armchair Racer

Go Kart Champion
Location
Florida
No, the weights I listed are from the official VW specifications PDFs, not Google. Here are the links:

https://newspress-vwusamedia.s3.amazonaws.com/documents/original/6312-16639762254eb40c8bd4a5.pdf

https://newspress-vwusamedia.s3.ama...2017GolfSportWagenTechnicalSpecifications.pdf

As you can see, using the _official_ weights for the two cars, the DSG R is 18lbs lighter than the DSG SW 4Motion... 3340 vs 3358. I have no idea where you're coming up with 3246 for a 2017 Sportwageb 4Motion DSG but that's not even close to its official weight as per VW. Again, look at the official specs I posted above.

With all due respect, those are pretty shitty numbers you ran given everything you had done, such as the meth, stacked JB4, slicks, gutted interior etc. That A3 trapped 120 or 2 MPH more than you despite pump gas, no meth and a full interior.

I'm starting to think that maybe the 1.8T can make very close to the same power as the LOW compression 2.0T (R/TTS/S3) with all else equal since your car was gutted just like Chuck's so the overall race weight of the two cars was probably pretty close (he did drop his catback but that will offset partially with the R being lighter from the factory). I think the big advantage that both the 1.8T and standard 2.0T has (GTI/A3/TT), at least for the purpose of going fast on the IS38, is it has a considerably higher compression ratio than the R.

The higher compression ratio is another reason why GTIs are trapping higher and putting down more power than Rs with all else equal.

More incorrect armchair racing. You used 2015 and 2017 so you could use google numbers. Go to vw.com and compare the 2017s side by side. Turns out I misremembered the numbers. The GSW is actually 94lbs lighter...my bad. 2017 Golf R=3340, 2017 GSW 4motion=3246. Both those weights are with DSG.

And I can assure you that the Rs on the list are most definitely pushing the limit of the is38. You see, the R at the top of that is38 list was mine. The day I ran that number the car was running 100oct in the tank plus watermeth with jb4 stacked over a UM flash and full bolt ons. Seeing 30psi in 4th with 17 degrees of timing. Seats pulled out, open downpipe with an electric cutout and Hoosier drag radials. Pretty much identical setup to what Chuck was running. The only real difference is that he had his exhaust pulled, saving around 50lbs and he weighs 190 to my 285. That, combined with the lighter weight of the GSW adds up to around 250lbs lighter. And his air was better. 0DA to my 1000DA. Other than that, our setups are almost identical. In fact, I would say the biggest common factor in our setups is that George had a hand in both our cars helping us wring every last bit out of the is38. You know, the guy you're arguing with about piston failures.

If we've established that the 1.8 makes less power than the 2.0, and that the Rs at the top of the list are pushing just as hard as Chuck is, then the difference is weight. That's all that's left. Which is the same reason that the IS38 GTIs are trapping in the 120s. They are significantly lighter than the R. And that's how a 1.8 making less power than the 2.0 is trapping the same. Less weight.
 

Armchair Racer

Go Kart Champion
Location
Florida
That's probably the difference in the compression ratios right there. The GTI will always make more power than the R due to the higher compression ratio provided it's not octane limited (which with an IS38 it won't be).

I’ve seen lots of dynos from both IS38 gti and stage 2 golf R. Seems like the majority of the golf R are around 335whp and the gti are usually 350+. I’ve seen as higher in the gti and also the R, but that seems to be the norm. The torque difference is also usually a greater spread as well going in favor to the gti
 

Armchair Racer

Go Kart Champion
Location
Florida
Just a FYI, all of VW's published weights are with a full tank of fuel, not empty. So it makes sense that if the weight with a full tank of fuel is 3358 that yours would weigh 3280 with 1/3 a tank. Of course there will be other variables, such as vehicle options, scale differences etc. Was your spare in the car at the time you weighed it?

While weighing your car is cool, it still doesn't change the fact that you're dead wrong about the R DSG being heavier than the GSW 4Motion DSG. If you would've weighed an R with 1/3 tank of fuel and everything else the same as your wagon (kids toys etc), it would've weighed right around 18lbs less than your car since that is the weight difference between the two with everything else being equal.

And trap speed is not only power and weight nor is it that simple. There are many other variables at play, such as aerodynamics, traction, density altitude, gearing (including tire size), shift points and speed of shifts, just to name a few. For example, when C&D has tested certain European cars, one with a DSG trans and one with a manual, the DSG quite frequently will have not just a better ET but a higher trap. Both cars will have the same power and similar weights (if anything the DSG will weigh more) but the DSG will trap a couple MPH higher. So your statement was incorrect.

Here you go guys. I stopped by the local public scale on the way to work this morning so we could stop armchair weighing. Lol. I wanted to get an official weight anyways.

This was with a 1/3 tank of gas and about 10lbs of junk in the car(kid’s booster seat and toys and whatnot)



Trap speed is power and weight. It’s that simple.
 
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Ironshade

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Atlanta Ga
Heres the 3-4 shift look at mph and rev. (Blades car)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Y3EJbwOa9Pg
Heres the 2-3 shift of my car
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1K1jMVaStlm-PqslTHB0dHddeTHQ3WfHp


But to cut down the drama, what ever my car traps is cool. I only roll race cuz of 150miles daily commute to school and its taken down some heavy hitters form 60rolls. . So whatever the case may be the 5mt has been doing awesome for me. And i still think its a decent trans for is38

I _never_ said they have the same drivetrain loss. What I said is a car with a modern and technologically advanced Haldex AWD system like the Golf R will only have 1-2% more drivetrain loss than a FWD Golf. You were trying to say it was an extra 15% lol. It's nowhere even close to that.

Unless you're running shorter diameter front tires than stock, the speeds and RPMs you've listed below do not add up. Not surprising since you seem to BS everything. For example, at the end of the 2-3 shift, you'll be at closer to 4200 RPMs than the 4500 you listed. Now for reference let's take a look at the APR dyno sheet for an IS38 on 1.8T. This won't be exactly the same as your car since you're running more boost and other mods but the shape of the curve will be very similar.



Now check out how much power you're making at 4200 RPMs after the 2-3 shift. Compare how much power it makes at 4200 RPMs vs say 5200, which is about where the DSG would have been assuming the same shift point and tire size. It's a 50+ WHP difference which is enormous. As you can see, you're at a much lower RPM and making a lot less power too. You now have to crawl back into the meat of the powerband. This is one reason why the DSG will beat you. The other is the DSG has lightning quick shifts. These are the two big reasons why you're not going to trap low to mid 120's, let alone match Chuck's 119. Like I said, you're probably around 117.
 
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